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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Dragon vs. 65mm film...

Peter Lyons Collister said:
Jim & Jarred,

Pretty excited about Dragon.... But in the meantime I am happy to be shooting 3 Epics and generating 6 hours of dailies each day for the past 68 shoot days on "Arrested Development"

Living large my friends, living large
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I hope that eventually winds up on ODEMAX as a paid download. Bet it would be a fun movie to watch, especially with additional content (BTS).
 
Rocco Schult said:
Just don't confuse 70mm IMAX with 6k…
A 70mm IMAX has roughly 10 times the surface area of 35mm academy and is close to 4:3 aspect.
Even IMAX DMR is scanned at 6k, way below its capacity, which in turn contains much more info than 6k, 1:1.91, non-debayered imagery.
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Yes I know... ;)
 
Patrick Scheller said:
What's the size of the Dragon sensor? I have not seen this posted yet.
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I believe the sensor is the same size and crop factor as the MX. The main difference is the photosites are much smaller, so we will get greater resolution and a lot more. Correct me if I'm wrong anybody.
 
Max Nguyen said:
I believe the sensor is the same size and crop factor as the MX. The main difference is the photosites are much smaller, so we will get greater resolution and a lot more. Correct me if I'm wrong anybody.
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If I have read posts correct, photosites are smaller and sensor is bigger...
 
I believe part of the intention was to bring 5k to bear on the S35 frame, to resolve a solid 4k from traditional focal lengths. I may be mistaken of course, but that would seem to make sense to me.
 
Exact specs have not been posted in terms of active area and resolution. We have approximates. In a nutshell, the active area is probably around 30mm wide and 15.5mm high. We know that it's "6K" and we know that the pixel or photo site size is 5 microns (0.005mm). "6K" is technically 6144 pixels wide, but we don't know what pixel dimensions are actually being used. Could be a bit more, could be a bit less. Every time I've seen someone throw out a guess, Jarred has said they were wrong. ;)

I'm not too worried about lens coverage. I'm betting most lenses that cover 5K on the MX sensor will do just fine. Some of the shorter focal lengths could have some coverage issues -- the 18mm RPP will most certainly vignette at 6K, I think. It's already showing some black in the corners at 5KFF...

One positive thing is that with the reduction of pixel size, we should be able to shoot 5K, or very close to it, on Dragon within the standard S35 window!
 
mikeburton said:
Is there any color science improvements that come with Dragon? Will their be a new Gamma / Color space when Dragon gets released?
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There is an improvement already, just much people are not aware of it.. Try the combo REDCOLOR 3 - REDLOG in REDCINEX with all settings to default. Perfect skin tones!.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
You mean without HDRX chief?
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Just a guess, but since Dragon will be data rate intensive I wouldn't be surprised if HDRx will no longer be available.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
There is an improvement already, just much people are not aware of it.. Try the combo REDCOLOR 3 - REDLOG in REDCINEX with all settings to default. Perfect skin tones!.
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That is no trick or magic you stumbled upon. I and many others have been using REDLOGfilm and many of the other color/gamma science implementations over the years. There is still room for improvement and I would absolutely say that although I am not quite as critical of RED skin tones as some I do see quite a bit in the color science that could use improvement to truly be a "film killer" IMO. It's still a concern and something RED should continue to work towards. I remember hearing that REDOne then Epic was the film killer stick around here long enough and you'll hear lots of things :)
 
mikeburton said:
That is no trick or magic you stumbled upon. I and many others have been using REDLOGfilm and many of the other color/gamma science implementations over the years. There is still room for improvement and I would absolutely say that although I am not quite as critical of RED skin tones as some I do see quite a bit in the color science that could use improvement to truly be a "film killer" IMO. It's still a concern and something RED should continue to work towards. I remember hearing that REDOne then Epic was the film killer stick around here long enough and you'll hear lots of things :)
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Did you say REDLOGfilm?.. I said REDLOG only.. there is a difference between the two..

Here is an HDRX image set to "Magic Motion", with the settings above..

small_zps751f84ec.jpg
 
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Andrew Huse said:
Jim please loan Roger Deakins a RED Dragon
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Don't loan it to him. Buy it for him, deliver it to his house, personally, with a Lexus bow on top of it.

If you get a smoother highlight roll-off than the current sensor has, to go with that dynamic range, it might be hard for him to resist. He would like a bit more resolution from Alexa than he has now, but he couldn't care less about "K"s.
 
Dear Jim,

Have you managed to see THE MASTER (P. T. Anderson) projected in 70mm?
I'm curious what you think - i.e. the comparison between 65mm film and the new Dragon sensor.

This is not an ironic question, quite the contrary! I enjoyed THE MASTER a lot and I found the image absolutely stunning. I would be very happy if Dragon matches it.

Mike M
 
Medavoym said:
Dear Jim,

Have you managed to see THE MASTER (P. T. Anderson) projected in 70mm?
I'm curious what you think - i.e. the comparison between 65mm film and the new Dragon sensor.

This is not an ironic question, quite the contrary! I enjoyed THE MASTER a lot and I found the image absolutely stunning. I would be very happy if Dragon matches it.

Mike M
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This is the perfect example to bring up i think. The Master in 70mm looked incredible. No digital camera comes even close to my eyes in terms of the 'look' of film as seen in The Master, which as i understand it also didn't have a DI.
 
Yup Pablo, then we're on the same page...

When I have time, I play around a lot with the gammas, and redlog is still a favourite and very lownoise startingpoint for a lot of images.

When I batch through hours of firstlights and need full controll/integration and colorintegrity/consistency for VFX and final grade, redlogfilm is the safe haven.

But when time or multiple departments are not involved in finnishing the same image in parallell, redlog has a lot of beauty to it and to my eyes often give better skintones and less noise in the darks.

For larger workflows/signalchain, the cineon compliamt rlf is my best friend, though...
 

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