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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

No excuse for 5K@24P on Scarlet

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adam r said:
Erik, the Red One has 4.5k but it's wide screen with 8:1 redcode @ 24fps. The 4kHD is the same for the Scarlet but with 6:1 compression and MUCH lighter:
Click to expand...

However thats lowest possible at 8:1.

RED MX can go way higher than the Scarlet.

Im not sure which direction you are leaning sorry.
 
Unless you need widescreen or slow motion I can't seen the point is lugging around the R1MX.

The scarlet gives you less compression (closer to raw) and is lighter.
 
adam r said:
It also has true 4k 16:9 format but this is is only a little higher than 4kHD (also 16:9).

Unless you need widescreen or slow motion I can't seen the point is lugging around the R1MX.
Click to expand...

The one at work rigged up is 29lbs :P

Yea not a run n gun set-up.
 
People who keep recommending RED ONE as an addition to Scarlet has most likely never shot with RED ONE.

The $4000 is for the body only. It has PL mount - yet most Scarlets have been purchased with the Canon mount. Even if there was a way to get Canon mount on the RED ONE - it would not be free...
Then the 5" Touch that most Scarlet owners bought will not work with the RED ONE. Nor will any power accessories.
While there is a B1 to B2 cable to allow the use of older RED ONE power accessories on DSMC - there is no B2 to B1 cable that will allow the DSMC power accessories to be used on RED ONE.
The RED ONE is much heavier and quite large. Many of the tripods that handle well the Scarlet / Epic will not handle the RED ONE...
I can keep going...

The point is that RED ONE is not $4000 (Think at least 10K when all said and done) and it kills the idea of being able to carry all my gear by myself to a remote locations - just so I can shoot 4.5K ws or 2K 120P...

No, thank You...

I will wait for RED to eventually test and enable additional picture modes on the Scarlet within the Scarlet's existing HW limitations...

Peter
 
Has anyone just emailed Jarred about this? I'm not saying all of us bombard him with this request but just one of us be the ring leader and shoot him a message. Let him know this debat is rambling on and on and see if he has a comment? Just seems a bit more concise then a ton of speculation. Some one through a anamorphic request in there too ha
 
I have spoken with people about 4.5k WS... The word is essentially that if it was possible it would take a lot of time and effort, and the reason it didn't take as much time/effort on the R1 was because it was FPGA (field programmable) instead of ASIC (hard coded). What makes it more difficult than standard 16:9 resolutions is that reading the sensor is done by rows and columns (not some ambiguous "whatever 4k's worth of pixels we want" method.)

My own guess is that RED could spend time doing it but Dragon is pretty close so they're spending their efforts elsewhere.
 
Im really torn between purchasing now and or waiting to see what transpires as 4.5k WS is something I'm really interested in. I much prefer the WS format.
 
Vald, you have the advantage of being able to purchase Bob's used for a reasonable price (I think he's selling)... You'd save a buttload on shipping/taxes/duties/transfer fees... It'd basically be the BT Scarlet deal, but better, because you don't have to wait and can start using it to make your money back immediately (although you wouldn't have the opportunity to get RED armour if that tickles your fancy.).

Tough call.

Honestly, 4.5k won't make the camera that much better, it'd just satiate people's perceptions and expectations (which, to be fair, were established because of how beautifully RED handled the R1's continued growth.) Plus it's kind of frustrating seeing a $4k/older camera essentially/objectively out perform the Scarlet, which costs twice as much. Things like HDRx aren't an advantage because realistically it's 3k max (at 24fps). And anyone who mentions Dragon as a reason to own a Scarlet is incredibly presumptuous given we don't know the cost (or the path) that will ultimately take. It's ironic really...

At the very least, you're better off waiting until Scarlet-to-Dragon details are sorted out. If the only path to Dragon is via Epic upgrade, you could quite possibly pick up an Scarlet-MX for $4k in mere months and be laughing.
 
Mike P. said:
I have spoken with people about 4.5k WS... The word is essentially that if it was possible it would take a lot of time and effort, and the reason it didn't take as much time/effort on the R1 was because it was FPGA (field programmable) instead of ASIC (hard coded). What makes it more difficult than standard 16:9 resolutions is that reading the sensor is done by rows and columns (not some ambiguous "whatever 4k's worth of pixels we want" method.)

My own guess is that RED could spend time doing it but Dragon is pretty close so they're spending their efforts elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I would like to know who these "people" are...

They forgot to realize that Jim himself said that DSMC cameras share the same code base and architecture. Also that things were (understandably) first developed and tested on Epic (which BTW has the same exact sensor as Scarlet), but all this R&D would benefit Scarlet eventually...

Guess what - the 5K WS mode already works on Epic and it boosted its performance from 96 to 120 FPS.
Scarlet already shoots 5K. At 12 FPS. For now...

Also - you will see that Epic has no problems changing its picture ratios from close to 4:3 ANA mode, through standard 16:9, all the way to the 2.39:1 WS modes that it handles in 5K, 4K, 3K and even 2K...

Rows and columns any day... ;o)

Peter
:reddevil:
 
Mike P. said:
I have spoken with people about 4.5k WS... The word is essentially that if it was possible it would take a lot of time and effort, and the reason it didn't take as much time/effort on the R1 was because it was FPGA (field programmable) instead of ASIC (hard coded). What makes it more difficult than standard 16:9 resolutions is that reading the sensor is done by rows and columns (not some ambiguous "whatever 4k's worth of pixels we want" method.)

My own guess is that RED could spend time doing it but Dragon is pretty close so they're spending their efforts elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I don't know much about ASIC vs FPGA, but the fact that Epic has a lot more 'pixel configurations' - and shipped almost a year earlier - kinda makes me doubt it'shardware code that's the primary limitation. Especially with the talk that 1k WS was essentially written-in to the Scarlet boards, and just not enabled in the early builds... It raises all kinds of questions like: if they shipped a month or two later, would that have enabled them to include more options like 2:1/anamorphic/4.5k etc. - but there simply wasn't time, and now we're stuck with that hard-wired code forever and ever? And was the Epic's 1k WS mode really programed in when they first shipped early 2011, before Scarlet's redesign was even close to complete?

Seems dubious to me... I think the development effort on 4.5k would be comparable to R1, but there's simply not the demand without major clients shooting on Scarlet. Enabling it the first time had a direct impact on major productions that are used to this day as evidence as what a RED can do.

Of course, if Scarlet sales collapse because everyone now opts for the similarly-priced Epic, that's a lot of wasted time on R&D and future firmware support... so that may be reason enough for RED to allocate the resources down the road. And yeah, probably sometime after Dragon.
 
Kyle Gentz said:
I bet this thread just irritates people at RED.
Click to expand...

I don't see why RED would be irritated by this thread - aside of fuming from Epic owners. RED listens to their customers. So we ask...
All the math and explanation in the process was not targeted at RED (we would be foolish to think they do not know what the cameras are capable of). It was to defend the logic and principals of the request knowing that "Epic attack" was sure to follow...

If anything I really do regret the title I have given to the thread. It was meant as tongue-in-cheek and in line with the solution I have proposed (use less then 5K if indeed 5K is not possible, for what ever 'epic' reason that might be)...

99% percent of the Scarlet projects are not finished in 4K (for now). This number will not change dramatically even if this new modes are introduced. But there are few of us - who wants to push the Scariet to its (image) limits within the (hardware) limits. I'm working on my own feature to be finished and distributed in 4K. I have already rented the Epic several times for some specific shots. But 90% of the film requires only 2.39:1 at 24P. I do believe Scarlet can pull this off. The resulting saving is huge and will allow me to finish the film much sooner. And for those who will say I can buy the Epic with the saving - yes, this is true, if it was not for the fact that I shoot as i manage to squeeze little by little from all the other jobs I am doing to keep my family going. I simply do not have $19K in a lump sum. I know I will save more then that over the course of filming this feature, but I just do not have it right now. And you can bet the first thing I am buying from the money I make with this film is Epic (or two)...

But all my personal reasons aside - there is far more important reasons for this.
The current situation in the market. Sony F5/F55, Canon C500/1D-C, ARRI Alexa 4K, for crying out loud even GoPro can now shoot 4K...
If the Scarlet had oversampling mode (higher then 4K) at 24P - it will set the RED lineup aside from the competition.
This for RED is far more important then 'not upsetting' Epic owners...
Those (Epic owners) who are good at what they do have no problems with this and understand it will benefit them as well in the long run.
And those (Epic owners) that want to find reason to be pissed will always find one. They have shown so through out all the amazing things RED have done for them already (the RED ONE stages is a nice example). You can bet that when the Dragon update is out it will be the same Mannheim for them all over again. Scarlet will for sure be able to shoot some 5K format at 24P (or more) and the upgrade could not cost $17K (the difference between Epic and Scarlet and the 6K Epic guys will pay) for the Scarlet. You can bet that will set a waves of complains from Epic owners. No doubt...

But - from RED PoV - the recent price drop is far more 'damaging' to the Epic owners then the 5K WS at 24P on Scarlet could ever be. They will "loose" much more business to the "fresh" Epic owners who got their shining new Epics at close to half the price of the pre-existing owners. Yet they (RED) did it...

I frankly do not believe that pleasing ALL Epic owners (which has proven to be impossible) is the reason why Scarlet does not have this mode. I believe it is because they are simply soo busy with all the other stuff (REDRAY, projector, Dragon, etc...), it is hard to squeeze the time and resources (and it is human resources, rather then $$$) to implement this properly into Scarlet...

But if enough of us keep asking or this politely - it will happen...

Because RED listens...

Peter
 
Peter Majtan said:
Tim - this would be expected if we were talking about SONY, or Canon, etc...
But we are talking RED here...

Obsolescence obsolete...
Not limiting what the HW can do just because of "marketing strategy"...
Listening to their customers...


Peter
Click to expand...

OK I will drop the (just use an MX argument, but I prefer it over the Scarlet) -

the rest of your argument would irritate me if Im Red. Because this is nothing like Sony et al... they released 2 separate camera lines (both upgradeable) and the difference is price...

listening to customers IS what they do Peter... but giving into demands for more functionality than you paid for is a bit too much to ask for. You KJNEW when you bought Scarlet that it was restricted so its not really in the same category as obsolescence obsolete (which is almost impossible by the way) and meant they are keeping true to that with free firmware, modules, etc.

Taking it so literally and then trying to guilt trip them for not applying that to everything is bullshit in my opinion. YOU AGREED TO BUY AN INFERIOR camera is the reality because you saved $ over the EPIC and they have every right to protect those customers and would be foolish to fuck them for Scarlet owners who now want more than they paid for.

All of the above qualified by AT THIS POINT IN TIME... after Dragon... different story. Like it or not they created 2 separate lines... I for one think Scarlet was a HUGE mistake this early and i hope it gets phased out because its hurting their brand. .. again just my opinion.

Im not emotionally attached to any of this but i find this thread really unfair to ask of RED the way its being spun as "they are not living up to their mantra" I definitely call bullshit on that tactic.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
OK I will drop the (just use an MX argument, but I prefer it over the Scarlet) -

the rest of your argument would irritate me if Im Red. Because this is nothing like Sony et al... they released 2 separate camera lines (both upgradeable) and the difference is price...

listening to customers IS what they do Peter... but giving into demands for more functionality than you paid for is a bit too much to ask for. You KJNEW when you bought Scarlet that it was restricted so its not really in the same category as obsolescence obsolete (which is almost impossible by the way) and meant they are keeping true to that with free firmware, modules, etc.

Taking it so literally and then trying to guilt trip them for not applying that to everything is bullshit in my opinion. YOU AGREED TO BUY AN INFERIOR camera is the reality because you saved $ over the EPIC and they have every right to protect those customers and would be foolish to fuck them for Scarlet owners who now want more than they paid for.

All of the above qualified by AT THIS POINT IN TIME... after Dragon... different story. Like it or not they created 2 separate lines... I for one think Scarlet was a HUGE mistake this early and i hope it gets phased out because its hurting their brand. .. again just my opinion.

Im not emotionally attached to any of this but i find this thread really unfair to ask of RED the way its being spun as "they are not living up to their mantra" I definitely call bullshit on that tactic.
Click to expand...

Tim - you could not be further from the truth. The easiest way to reply to you is re-post what I have just posted above:

"But - from RED PoV - the recent price drop is far more 'damaging' to the Epic owners then the 5K WS at 24P on Scarlet could ever be. They will "loose" much more business to the "fresh" Epic owners who got their shining new Epics at close to half the price of the pre-existing owners. Yet they (RED) did it...

I frankly do not believe that pleasing ALL Epic owners (which has proven to be impossible) is the reason why Scarlet does not have this mode. I believe it is because they are simply soo busy with all the other stuff (REDRAY, projector, Dragon, etc...), it is hard to squeeze the time and resources (and it is human resources, rather then $$$) to implement this properly into Scarlet...

But if enough of us keep asking or this politely - it will happen...

Because RED listens..."

Peter
 
I'm with you Peter, and I'm sure there are a lot more. This IS an exciting thread because it's about Redusers exercising their power to communicate and discuss exciting possibilities. You are doing that very well, so thanks!
 
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