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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Attitude adjustment...

Zachary Marsh said:
I do feel for Epic Owners who just lost a huge amount of their investment resale value. I think this also contributes to a thought I had...

RED is trying to say that they are just passing on savings. That might be true. But I actually think this is the first time that RED has had to play catchup/respond to the industry, instead of telling the industry where it should go. The BMCC and new Sony F5 are still incredibly viable products. Why? Because it still costs $15k for a functioning RED Scarlet/RED One MX, and even more for the other options. I could buy the BMCC today and literally not have to buy anything else.
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You can remove the BMCC for now. They are not getting that product out this year from the sounds of it.
 
Michel Rabe said:
I like the idea! Would still give Epic the 5K advantage but close the gap a bit, just like pricing gap has been significantely closed now.
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I was actually thinking of closing the gap between Scarlet and R1mx... It'd be real swell to have the Scarlet be a R1mx but at half the size. Other features, like HDRx, are somewhat less functional as it's less than the 4k standard (not a good idea to shoot 3k HDRx when it can't be upscaled).

But, yeah, now that Epic is essentially 2x the cost of Scarlet, it'd be nice to have that gap be less than 10x (12 to 120fps) as well...

...If I had $15k laying around, it'd be worthwhile selling my Scarlet Brain for $4k and upgrading to Epic... but I don't, so it's not.

Terry VerHaar said:
It's true the path to upgrade to Epic is not clear now. Unless RED does some sort of trade-in or upgrade program, I'll have to sell my Scarlet and buy Epic outright but that's not such a terrible option either. Right now, I am good! :thumbsup:
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What makes this a crappy plan is the resale value of Scarlet. After ownership transfer, shipping, duties, the fact that it's used (with a meek 90day warranty), and because there are hundreds of Scarlet owners wanting to do the same thing, you're gonna be hard pressed to sell it for more than $5k (brain only) in the next 12months (less, after that.) At that price, you may as well keep it as a back up...
 
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I have one Epic-M, and I'm not worried about lower brain prices destroying rentals. I have a lot of money invested in EVERYTHING else, FF, Matteboxes, Glass, Filters, Tripods, RED accessories etc. Red's price reduction brought my total package value down about 10%. I totally expected price reductions and depreciation when I clicked the "buy now" button, I purchased this camera to be a workhorse for rentals and my own projects. I have made lots of money since getting my Epic last year, and I expect to keep on making money, especially with a Dragon in my Epic.
 
Arnold F. said:
1) There is no denying the new Epic price is great for us who would like to buy one.

2) I didn't buy an Epic for $35K but I'd be unhappy if I had. Here's why:

No business owner buys a piece of equipment without considering it's resale value. This is particularly true in a business like ours where the landscape changes rapidly. We are always hoping to get the most in resale for our gear in order to upgrade to the next thing.

We do have to face incremental decreases in value do to wear and tear, small decreases in retail price (example: 5DM2), obsolescence, etc. All of us accept that.

What many current Epic owners do find hard to accept is a unexpected, manufacturer- imposed free-fall - an instant loss of something like 40% of the resale value they planned for. These people, who lost $15,000-$20,000 overnight, are the folks one poster above is calling "whiners." Nice.

This appears to be missed by the following list of less than well-reasoned thoughts directed at current Epic owners. These are all REAL statements by users here:

- you still have the camera
- your camera still turns on
- you already made your money off it
- whiners
- you're anti-RED

If your new car gets totalled three months after you buy it is it consolation that you still own it, or that it starts? If you're unhappy about your totalled car are you a whiner? Does it make you anti-car?

3) There is no denying that the Epic prices is great for us who would like to buy one. There is no denying that the new Epic price is hard for those who already have one.
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Well put and reasonable comment.

I am one of those Epic owners affected - and whilst I applaud RED on one hand for what they've done, on the other, the price slash hurts and throws a number of unexpected elements in my path (that I have to deal with).

I feel that this is Jim's Revenge for some of the stuff that happened in the stages, as many people made a lot of profit back then by selling Epics they bought for a small amount. If I remember correctly, Jim wasn't very happy as he viewed it simply in the fact he was trying to help/protect his loyal RED customer base.

Now we get this - anyone who purchased Stage4 is affected in some way, depending on everyone's plans for ROI. I'm not getting into that debate as it's raging over the forum in many ways.

Suffice to say, my only disappointment is that there isn't a 'bone' tossed to the large volume of Stage4/2012 purchasers. I don't think it should be 'free' or 'almost free', but something to show RED still think about all their customers. It would be easy to offer some type of credit on purchases before the end of the year (or even the end of the month).

I know it won't happen & Jim has made his position clear - I just feel some gesture could end up making the situation diffuse/calmer etc & the everyone can get on :)

The differential on my Epic (then & now) would have gone on extra RED accessories anyway (Meizer etc :) LOL

I agree with Arnold's reasoned comment & I think others should take note of that and just consider how the slash affects everyone.

No bitching, no whining, just some mature comment.
 
kitting out a red one at these prices is less then 15k, unless your trying to lump in things you probably already own, a nice fluid head, matte box, glass, etc. for studio work you can just use the power cord and a cheapo external field monitor and be essentially good to go quite cheap. even if you want batteries, v mounts are dirt cheap. so unless your starting from scratch kitting out a red one wont be a lot...

had i not bought a scarlet a couple months ago i would be kitting out a dirt cheap BT red one right now...


Zachary Marsh said:
I do feel for Epic Owners who just lost a huge amount of their investment resale value. I think this also contributes to a thought I had...

RED is trying to say that they are just passing on savings. That might be true. But I actually think this is the first time that RED has had to play catchup/respond to the industry, instead of telling the industry where it should go. The BMCC and new Sony F5 are still incredibly viable products. Why? Because it still costs $15k for a functioning RED Scarlet/RED One MX, and even more for the other options. I could buy the BMCC today and literally not have to buy anything else.
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ps you still need ssds, an ssd reader, glass, matte, fluid head, basically almost all the other stuff a red would need. the only thing you got built in is a monitor and a dinky battery. sure its something, but field monitors aint a lot and that built in battery sort of sucks i heard
 
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The "car-totaled "analogy makes no sense. People, quite reasonably, insure their cars for this sort of thing. Also, in buying a car, everyone who has not been in a cave for 100 years knows that a new car depreciates substantially as soon as you drive it off the lot. So, if you total your car and the insurance company replaces it (or compensates you so you can buy another, identical car) you are fine - even if that replacement vehicle is only valued at 40% (or whatever) of the original.

People seem to insist on relating investment expectations with the ownership of a tool. Maybe the best thing we can all take away from this experience is that a camera is a TOOL, not an investment. Treat it as such and you'll be happier. Oh, and by the way, unless you are buying rare antique automobiles (which is a very volatile market anyway), an automobile is not an "investment" either.
 
i would be happy to trade up to an epic off my barely used Scarlet if any of the so called "whiners" are inclined. I paid full price for the scarlet and last time i looked i had 50 hours of run time, though its probably 60 or so by now... even if not now, at some point as i save i wouldn't mind trading up, so if any of you want to trade down feel free to hmu about it while i continue to save up
 
Brian Merlen said:
kitting out a red one at these prices is less then 15k, unless your trying to lump in things you probably already own, a nice fluid head, matte box, glass, etc. for studio work you can just use the power cord and a cheapo external field monitor and be essentially good to go quite cheap. even if you want batteries, v mounts are dirt cheap. so unless your starting from scratch kitting out a red one wont be a lot...

had i not bought a scarlet a couple months ago i would be kitting out a dirt cheap BT red one right now...




ps you still need ssds, an ssd reader, glass, matte, fluid head, basically almost all the other stuff a red would need. the only thing you got built in is a monitor and a dinky battery. sure its something, but field monitors aint a lot and that built in battery sort of sucks i heard
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I would be building a RED kit from scratch. I already have everything I need for the BMCC. BTW, the RED One wouldn't stand a chance on the head I have, whereas the BMCC would be just fine. I'd have to buy new sticks, get cards (I already have SSD's and an SSD reader that I can use with the BMCC). Even then, buying 2x120gb SSD drives would be $250 or near there. Getting a small tripod to support it.

You could argue the EPIC and SCARLET weigh less, but they also cost more and the accessories to get them functioning...I priced a Scarlet with everything you'd need just to get by, and it's easily $20k.

If you want a decent field monitor, you have to spend a little money.

EDIT: BTW, I love how people are trying to argue that a RED package would be cheaper than BMCC (utterly and ridiculously false), but are ignoring the fact that RED is responding to the industry instead of telling them where to go.
 
Each business model has to have an eye on the replacement cost, for the worse case scenario. I haven't seen anyone talking about that (I missed it perhaps)
If your business is based on an exceptional skill-level as a cinematographer, a lower replacement price makes your future much more stable.

(Yes, I understand certainly the frustration to lose money on tech-development, but that's a two decade experience for me - by now)
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
I appreciate the sympathetic nod to we Scarlet owners but, honestly, I don't feel hard hit at all. I ordered my Scarlet in Nov/2011 and received it in February. Have shot happily for several months now and my $9750 "investment" (and I use the term loosely), in brain, SSD module and lens mount now sells for $10,150. I actually hadn't done the math before now but now I realize the new set-up is actually more expensive than I paid. Meanwhile, I've accumulated accessories that can be moved over to an Epic, if I decide to get one.

The Epic is a fabulous deal but, right now, I'd be happy if I could just bump my Scarlet up to 5K/24 fps and maybe get higher frames rates at the lower resolution, too. Personally, I am not even that hot on Dragon for myself as yet (although, that will probably change. lol)

It's true the path to upgrade to Epic is not clear now. Unless RED does some sort of trade-in or upgrade program, I'll have to sell my Scarlet and buy Epic outright but that's not such a terrible option either. Right now, I am good! :thumbsup:
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Oh. That explains it. I guess you were not negatively impacted financially by this announcement, hence, you feel no one else should feel that either.
 
Zachary Marsh said:
EDIT: BTW, I love how people are trying to argue that a RED package would be cheaper than BMCC (utterly and ridiculously false), but are ignoring the fact that RED is responding to the industry instead of telling them where to go.
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What is this BMCC you speak of?

Does it actually exist?
 
well your def right about the tripod lol! Sounds like the BMC is a good fit for you, its not a bad camera. I just meant as far as most of the accessories go, it's the same parts, glass, matte, etc. Tripod being different, and the fact you don't need a field monitor and you get a free battery in the deal. Using cheaper media helps too (but if your good at cycling you can do the same with red mags too). Personally I love shooting over cranked though and that is why I love my red, I shoot 120fps in 1k most of the time, or 60fps in 2k. I have shot 4k but its not that relevant to me at the moment, other then over scaling sampling to get a nicer final exported image. so different strokes for different folks, but personally if i had to make the choice today i would get the BT red one, and probably complain about the weight every chance i get...

then again i think my scarlet is "relatively heavy" so i'm a total wimp... i swear i feel so nervous going hand held on it!

ps you know you can use the same consumer ssd's with a red with a third party device like a pix240 or similar model? that makes a red a lot more like the BMC AND, it can do over cranks when needed too. so there are cheaper ways to kit a red out, like ignoring the red mags all together...


Zachary Marsh said:
I would be building a RED kit from scratch. I already have everything I need for the BMCC. BTW, the RED One wouldn't stand a chance on the head I have, whereas the BMCC would be just fine. I'd have to buy new sticks, get cards (I already have SSD's and an SSD reader that I can use with the BMCC). Even then, buying 2x120gb SSD drives would be $250 or near there. Getting a small tripod to support it.

You could argue the EPIC and SCARLET weigh less, but they also cost more and the accessories to get them functioning...I priced a Scarlet with everything you'd need just to get by, and it's easily $20k.

If you want a decent field monitor, you have to spend a little money.

EDIT: BTW, I love how people are trying to argue that a RED package would be cheaper than BMCC (utterly and ridiculously false), but are ignoring the fact that RED is responding to the industry instead of telling them where to go.
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Basic Epic with Red Zoom rents for about the same as a basic C300 package over here as from today. I got a quote today on a basic Epic package and it was about 30% less than last month. That sure is a price drop.
 
Didn't know about using third party SSD's with RED, that does bring the prices a bit closer together. If you can ignore RED mags, that's a pretty good deal. Then again, you have a massive hunk of a machine with the RED One verses a little BMCC (and I agree, I rarely ever shoot 4k for any of my projects unless requested, hence no need for a more expensive Scarlet Package). But with the RED One out of the picture, there's no way to compare the prices for a BMCC to a Scarlet. And 2.5k is fantastic looking on the BMCC. Plus, free Davinci Resolve. :)


Brian Merlen said:
well your def right about the tripod lol! Sounds like the BMC is a good fit for you, its not a bad camera. I just meant as far as most of the accessories go, it's the same parts, glass, matte, etc. Tripod being different, and the fact you don't need a field monitor and you get a free battery in the deal. Using cheaper media helps too (but if your good at cycling you can do the same with red mags too). Personally I love shooting over cranked though and that is why I love my red, I shoot 120fps in 1k most of the time, or 60fps in 2k. I have shot 4k but its not that relevant to me at the moment, other then over scaling sampling to get a nicer final exported image. so different strokes for different folks, but personally if i had to make the choice today i would get the BT red one, and probably complain about the weight every chance i get...

then again i think my scarlet is "relatively heavy" so i'm a total wimp... i swear i feel so nervous going hand held on it!

ps you know you can use the same consumer ssd's with a red with a third party device like a pix240 or similar model? that makes a red a lot more like the BMC AND, it can do over cranks when needed too. so there are cheaper ways to kit a red out, like ignoring the red mags all together...
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Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
Oh. That explains it. I guess you were not negatively impacted financially by this announcement, hence, you feel no one else should feel that either.
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I got lucky. But I NEVER assumed anything about the rental market or the resale value. And, if you were to look back at my comments BEFORE the new pricing, my position was the same although I had no idea what the effects would be on me.
 
Jannard said:
OK... I'm a bit frustrated by some of your reactions.

Jim
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I'm stunned that people are actually *complaining* about price reductions, and that they seem to think a company has some kind of obligation to keep prices artificially high to support some unfounded assumption they had made about future pricing.

Seems to go against every free-market/capitalistic notion this country is based on honestly.

i also wonder how many of those people would be singing the same tune if they hadn't made a purchase yet and could now take advantage of the new pricing. Probably not too many.
 
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