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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HP 820 Tower - RED EDITION

Half Pregnant

Half Pregnant

This is an interesting thread.

I personally am an agnostic. I've been employed by both Apple and Microsoft.

My personal and professional computational platforms are a mix of OSX and Windows.

I am however extremely frustrated with Apple and have been for some time. So the existing Xeon processor choice is a short term answer that is power hungry and inefficient compared to what Intel is delivering later this year, and so you want to wait to deliver a new workstation platform until next year. OK. I don't have a huge problem with that, but say so up front, don't make me dig for a leaked comment from a technology columnist

Given that choice however... why the heck haven't you delivered a Thunderbolt PCIe card so that I can share the peripherals that work across the rest of your product line with the "new" MacPro? (and my significant investment in what is essentially the same model)

Regardless of both it's strengths and weaknesses ProRes continues to be the lingua franca in much of the production community. Given your choice not to deliver a current workstation, why not extend the license that already exits with AJA to allow for platform agnostic ProRes rendering?

The IOHD had this ability, but is limited to firewire speeds. Frankly I don't care who builds the thing, but as it extends your Quicktime platform at a time when your ProApps division is doing everything in its power to piss off the professional production community, it seams like ignoring such an opportunity further calls into question the long term viability of a platform that is key to your delivering content to your very profitable consumer electronics customers.

If there isn't enough money in building high end workstations to make it a fit for your core business, why not license a multiprocessor only version of the OS to a system integrator or better yet to a company like HP that builds well engineered hardware and replicate something like what MS did with the compatibility labs where the testing costs are the responsibility of the HP or the hardware integrator.

I know this runs counter to your core DNA, but we've been down this path before. Remember that whole internet thing with no TCPIC stack, broken transport, and not wanting to use other peoples browsers or Java runtime engines? That turned out OK didn't it.

Sigh...

I love you guys, I buy your stuff, but sometimes I want to load a trap full of iphones and just yell "Pull" all day.

If the Tekserver guys can deliver at the prices we were talking about at the open house, there is very likely one of these in my future, they will be a very good value.
 
Do you think it's better to get a REVODrive?
Or a Raid card and SSD's in Raid.

It's something I'm debating about.
I feel that at least with the SSD's, you could upgrade, and increase the size, whereas the RevoDrive you're stuck. Have you had any fail on you Axel?
 
Do you think it's better to get a REVODrive?
Or a Raid card and SSD's in Raid.

It's something I'm debating about.
I feel that at least with the SSD's, you could upgrade, and increase the size, whereas the RevoDrive you're stuck. Have you had any fail on you Axel?

We have not had any fail so far.

With SSDs in a RAID you might get quickly into troubles, because many RAID controllers don't support TRIM command. On the OS directly attached that works better as far as I can tell. We have some systems that did not have a free PCIe slot, so we went for dual SSD stripe via onboard RAID controller - but that slows down over time and is not a good solution.

Regarding your upgrade thoughts:
If you need to upgrade the RevoDrive in size, you may add another one if you have free slots. But its not as flexible as with a RAID controller in first place. But for us the total size alone wasn't the issue. More important was maximum speed - and thats given even with smaller PCIe SSDs now.

Or get this one upfront:

http://www.oczenterprise.com/ssd-products/z-drive-r4-cloudserv.html

Hehe...


Back to the RAID idea:

I think its probably best to have some SSDs connected to the onboard SATA3 ports (SATA2 is a bottleneck) and stipe them for maximum speed in the OS. So you gain the highest throughput and more important I/O per second. Use some daily backup to have redundancy from the SSDs (e.g. a 2 TByte sized SSD RAID is already large, a 2 TByte harddisk is inexpensive, far less than the redundant RAID controller in most cases).

Axel
 
We have not had any fail so far.

With SSDs in a RAID you might get quickly into troubles, because many RAID controllers don't support TRIM command. On the OS directly attached that works better as far as I can tell. We have some systems that did not have a free PCIe slot, so we went for dual SSD stripe via onboard RAID controller - but that slows down over time and is not a good solution.

Regarding your upgrade thoughts:
If you need to upgrade the RevoDrive in size, you may add another one if you have free slots. But its not as flexible as with a RAID controller in first place. But for us the total size alone wasn't the issue. More important was maximum speed - and thats given even with smaller PCIe SSDs now.

Or get this one upfront:

http://www.oczenterprise.com/ssd-products/z-drive-r4-cloudserv.html

Hehe...


Back to the RAID idea:

I think its probably best to have some SSDs connected to the onboard SATA3 ports (SATA2 is a bottleneck) and stipe them for maximum speed in the OS. So you gain the highest throughput and more important I/O per second. Use some daily backup to have redundancy from the SSDs (e.g. a 2 TByte sized SSD RAID is already large, a 2 TByte harddisk is inexpensive, far less than the redundant RAID controller in most cases).

Axel


I'm reading conflicting reports of whether that is true or not; especially with the 3rd gen ones. The Onboard Raided ones: Were they the old SSD's?
I remember the Z-Drive R4 : ) Overkill.
 
Can we please make Jeff Kilgroe an honorary RED Team member so I can jump to his posts in the thread too? I'm not kidding... Perhaps we can include all moderators in the RED Team perhaps?
 
Yeah the mini keyboards suck for anything but general typing. Too bad Apple doesn't make a wireless version of their full size keyboard. Just about every "pro" Mac user I know wants such a thing. Anyway the Logitech K750 is a pretty good alternative and no batteries to replace. :)

If/when Apple does update the Mac Pro, I want a whole new design. The current tower design is almost 11 years old now -- yes, seriously! That design == do not want!
Yes it is amazing that the Mac Pro tower case is almost 11 years old but it is also amazing that the design was so forward looking that it still does not look dated, shame they let the insides rot...
 
Odd. I don't consider using the approriate tool for a professional job a "lifestyle" choice.

-sc

Really. See I find that using a platform that requires a working knowledge of the 30+ year old bloated technical underpinnings in order to perform my creative work a cramp on my lifestyle - be it at work or play. I also believe Apple has done more to merge all the things in life I enjoy into devices that are the pinnacle of industrial design . . . as voted on by the planet. HP, Dell, Acer, Blackberry, Toshiba, Ford, Chevy not so much. Each his own - I agree with SJ's design ethos and concept of merging life and work into simple, virus free, stable and reliable tools that allow you to concentrate on your creative vision / voice rather then code and fixes. Geeks will be geeks, gamers/gamers, and neckbeard Linux programmers will be . . . you get the pic. I'm a proud black mock turtleneck with blue jeans wearing fan of The Man.

Oh and . . . both my 9 year old niece and 90 year old mother use iMacs I gave them for Christmas a couple years ago. Mom is authoring 3 children's books that kick ass and manages 10,000 photos she has taken over the years when she was not painting. She lives in the Georgia O'Keeffe desert zone of no tech support for a 3 day ride. Her remote and creative lifestyle does not allow for machines that think like Bill Gates, were designed by a dude at Dell and supported by the Geek Squad.

Peace

http://ss64.com/bash/
 
I totally like the idea of making Jeff Kilgroe an honorary RED person so that we can track what he says.

Or just create a special tab "what'd Jeff say"...
 
You both missed and made my point. In LED light bulbs you get the same lumens for much less wattage consumption that hot wire Edison era technology. You can have both high performance AND low resource demand if you focus on innovation rather than brute horse power (HP, horse power . . . as in buggy whips . . . just realized that). Do you think for a second that the current RED Code compression is the ultimate technology of all times? My point is this: rather than continuing the arms race of bigger more powerful CPU's maybe we find a way to have a 50mbs bandwidth be all we need for stunning 5K images in a camera that does not need a fan. If owing a RED means that I have to get a PC gamer scale, liquid cooled boner box then I don't own a RED anymore. I'll be looking for a more elegant solution, with better math behind it, that can run perfectly on computer that I can buy off the retail shelf at a reasonable cost.

The problem is not with Apple and it's tower in waiting - it's a mindset of bigger is always better . . . but in the gear selling business that's what you do.

Efficiency of Resource Utilization always wins in the long term - be that finances, energy or human potential.


Sorry if I'm taking things further off topic, but I'm with Elsie on this one.

The argument works on a 'peak oil' kind of basis, where you're talking about finite resources, but in this instance where we can happily rely on Moore's (and Kryder's, Nielson's etc etc) Law, I believe relying on major innovation in such kinds of efficiency is a mis-spent endeavor.

You can only compress a certain amount, (converging at 100%) and so each step forward has diminishing returns. Horsepower, however, is open-ended - the sky is the limit. Give me more firepower than I can use, and I can choose to throttle back if I want to. At the end of the day, if I can get better footage from an inelegant solution, then my apologies to the elegant one, and I would place my money on my needs being met by an expansion in firepower rather than a reduction in overhead.

This is not to say that such innovation is not important or valuable - it just shouldn't be the focus.
Besides, this innovation is happening - just not at the bleeding edge. For example, you'll find a damn good camera in the iPhone, all things considered, and that is the product of the reverse arms race.
 
This discussion reminds me of a quote from the 1988 film "Colors"



There's two bulls standing on top of a mountain. The younger one says to the older one: "Hey pop, let's run down there and fuck one of them cows". The older one says: "No son. Lets walk down and fuck 'em all".
 
Sorry if I'm taking things further off topic, but I'm with Elsie on this one.

The argument works on a 'peak oil' kind of basis, where you're talking about finite resources, but in this instance where we can happily rely on Moore's (and Kryder's, Nielson's etc etc) Law, I believe relying on major innovation in such kinds of efficiency is a mis-spent endeavor.

You can only compress a certain amount, (converging at 100%) and so each step forward has diminishing returns. Horsepower, however, is open-ended - the sky is the limit. Give me more firepower than I can use, and I can choose to throttle back if I want to. At the end of the day, if I can get better footage from an inelegant solution, then my apologies to the elegant one, and I would place my money on my needs being met by an expansion in firepower rather than a reduction in overhead.

This is not to say that such innovation is not important or valuable - it just shouldn't be the focus.
Besides, this innovation is happening - just not at the bleeding edge. For example, you'll find a damn good camera in the iPhone, all things considered, and that is the product of the reverse arms race.

. . . like I said "each his own" . . . some of us drive a COD mission worthy F-250 Super Duty Platinum Edition with a massive 6.7-liter PowerStroke diesel riding on 36" wheels and mud tires while some of us drive a Tesla Model S fueled by an 18Kw backyard self installed solar grid. Yup, each his own:

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/performance
 
. . . like I said "each his own" . . . some of us drive a COD mission worthy F-250 Super Duty Platinum Edition with a massive 6.7-liter PowerStroke diesel riding on 36" wheels and mud tires while some of us drive a Tesla Model S fueled by an 18Kw backyard self installed solar grid. Yup, each his own:

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/performance

Ooops! I spent all my money on an Epic and can't afford the Tesla car.........Yet!
 
Nice 2010 article - I'll keep that in mind. For those who have never experienced the instant 100% torque of a DC powered car . . . you will never go back to dino blood and horse power

That Tesla car only needs one extra, very important factor: a Super sound system with heavy bass connected to the gearbox. They can be fast, but sound like sh#t. Compare an electric car with the sound of this... (play starting at 1:20) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1sysw6FPSg&feature=related

Completely and utterly off topic, but when one starts to talk about cars...
 
That Tesla car only needs one extra, very important factor: a Super sound system with heavy bass connected to the gearbox. They can be fast, but sound like sh#t. Compare an electric car with the sound of this... (play starting at 1:20) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1sysw6FPSg&feature=related

Completely and utterly off topic, but when one starts to talk about cars...

Word . . . my other car is a 2010 GT-3 RS which seems to have no hi-fi installed. Naturally aspirated fire breathing bass drop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B7ttDuXBn8
 
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