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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HP 820 Tower - RED EDITION

Mike Halper said:
Yes, but that's not what it would cost now.
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you are right.. the top apple costs more now.

For you that already have a Rocket card.. you can just buy the normal 820.
 
... in a pro environment, it all comes down to reliability, quality and performance.

years back, many, many light years ... ;-) ... i was working on tight deadlines on pcs and there has always been a looming danger of getting the work done but having the pc corrupting something ....

it all suddenly changed, when i made the jump to the mac ... very expensive back then ...
but i've got "peace of mind" ... and the quality of my work reached new hights, different story.

this experience is so deeply engrained, that i vowed to never go back to "windows" genetics, for no money.

unfortunately, the "trust" factor in apples productivity thinking and reliability is falling apart, too ....

which makes me think, i could as well retire ... lol
 
Ok...who wants one of these? :devil:

REDMac.jpg
 
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Jarred Land said:
you are right.. the top apple costs more now.
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Actually you can get a 12-core with 12GB RAM for $6200. Buy 32GB RAM from OWC for $600 (because why on Earth would some pay for Apple's memory?). Buy a Quadro 4000 for $750. You're at $7,550 and can sell the 12GB of RAM the Mac Pro came with. And that's not taking into consideration any business or other discounts that are possible through Apple. Sure, not much less than $8,000, but not more either. And definitely not at the power and features of the RED/HP because if you add a new Rocket you're looking at $12,300, plus you don't get the Redmag readers, BD burner, slower ram, less cores, less clock speed. So, yes absolutely, price for purely performance, PC's (and certainly the RED/HP) win almost every time. But like I said, it's not always about performance. There's stability, reliability, build quality, and the OS.
 
OK...This is a thread about Apple being deaf to their customers needs, and how HP has stepped up to respond. Good for HP!

Several people have chimed in saying they want Linux support. Can we get HP, who sells billions of $$ worth of Linux hardware to Wall Street, Hollywood, and other large markets, to offer Linux support for their RED platform?
 
George Petersen said:
..you have no choice but Windows...
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Actually we do and I choose Apple :)
I can say the same thing about 3D computing. I can push my Windows weight around and state that you cant do 3D on the Mac (even though I started on the Mac with Swivel3D and Infini-D).
I've been to the races with raw power and its not all that cracked up to be.

So yes, we all have a choice ;)
 
Just out of curiosity, I have seen several people on this thread claim that MAC OS is better than Windows. How so? I love Windows 7. It does everything I need it to do. The few times I have tried to use a Mac, it seems like a toy to me, like it's somehow been dumbed down a little bit, for people who are not good with computers? I don't mean this to sound offensive. I have actually seen this as a selling point. "It's so easy to use." Am I wrong about this?

Obviously people who are very expert users and builders tend to work on PCs, mainly. I am talking about gamers, overclockers, etc.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Just out of curiosity, I have seen several people on this thread claim that MAC OS is better than Windows. How so? I love Windows 7. It does everything I need it to do. The few times I have tried to use a Mac, it seems like a toy to me, like it's somehow been dumbed down a little bit, for people who are not good with computers? I don't mean this to sound offensive. I have actually seen this as a selling point. "It's so easy to use." Am I wrong about this?

Obviously people who are very expert users and builders tend to work on PCs, mainly. I am talking about gamers, overclockers, etc.
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That's the point, Tom. My 2 cents:

I was a PC Guy in the windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP times (still use an XP system for some corporate communication needs). Its true what you say that a PC works best with someone that is good with computers. This was what I needed to be when I started editing 14 years ago. I needed to know about "control panel", About "illegal operations" about sometimes having to enter the DOS prompt, about compatibilities and about components from different companies. Some people find this "fun", building your own system and trying to make it work reliably and without hicups. However, with all the fight i had with different components, different drivers, instability, some not so good components failing, etc, I took notice that I was wasting more time in being an engineer than being a creative, or on concentrating on my ideas, my storytelling, what i could achieve with the computer. This is not marketing, but the truth.

When I purchased my first mac, i was really a bit lost. I also found, like you, I was in a more "simplistic" environment: where's the control panel, the individual setup icons, the drivers folder, etc. etc.? The truth is, in a Mac, this is all taken care of for you. The concept of a Mac is for the user to "forget" about the engineering and to concentrate on doing things with the computer. And, I have to say, since going to OS X, I have felt a much better relationship with the "computer" as a "tool" for my creativity than in my PC days.

Things might have changed. In the corporate world, VISTA created a very bad taste in everyone's mouth so many are still in XP. Windows 7 might be much better, I haven't tried it to be honest, and, sincerely, Why should I if OS X continues to be the same joy to use since, well, OS X was introduced? (I think I started in 10.2 or 10.3 with Final Cut Pro 4?).

The other big question- for a longtime MAC user, this doesn't apply to PC users or someone "new" entering the post production arena- is: why switch right now, when Apple ANNOUNCED a new Mac Pro for next year, and with such exciting new technology around the corner that can make our workflows take an even bigger leap? As a Mac User, the only way to answer this is with:

1- Corporate buy needs- The Mac user needs to purchase THIS YEAR computers for the next 3 or 4 years- very possible for schools, Universities and some other businesses. A Red HP makes complete sense here since its the most capable RED cutting Computer on the market.(my corporate business went for a top of the line "new" Macpro due to legacy compatibility issues.)

2- A Mac User that needs urgently the fastest machine on the market, independent of OS. This is it, and should probably last for the next 3 or 4 years.

I honestly can't see any other reason for switching.

As I'm not in both 1 or 2 ( Well, I'm a bit of 1, but that has been taken care of), I really don't see the need to upgrade my DESKTOP this year... YET. I will wait for Apple's hand next year. What Apple has done for me and my business over the years warrants this extra year of waiting. In a couple of weeks I will have an Apple laptop that surpasses the performance of my 2008 Macpro, which will surely keep me working well until next year when new technologies are announced. I can afford to wait.

Remember, this is an opinion from a MAC USER. PC users should disregard this, since the HP machine really is the best one can get for RED related work.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Just out of curiosity, I have seen several people on this thread claim that MAC OS is better than Windows. How so? I love Windows 7. It does everything I need it to do. The few times I have tried to use a Mac, it seems like a toy to me, like it's somehow been dumbed down a little bit, for people who are not good with computers? I don't mean this to sound offensive. I have actually seen this as a selling point. "It's so easy to use." Am I wrong about this?

Obviously people who are very expert users and builders tend to work on PCs, mainly. I am talking about gamers, overclockers, etc.
Click to expand...
Funny I dont feel the same way. Ive been on Windows 7 for months at home/work and find the easiest tasks such as the Control Panel has been somewhat blowned up into a few more tabs and options. I miss the old XP days (or better yet Windows 2000), where everything was more iconic based.
Dont get me wrong, Windows 7 is by far the most stable MS offering but for family home use, I give it about 3 months then its time to re-install the OS.
Not the same situation for the professionals since we all know that we wouldnt buy a RED HP for Facebook now would we :)

Btw I find it odd that Windows diehards call OS X a toy when we see MS heading further into a more toy looking GUI.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Just out of curiosity, I have seen several people on this thread claim that MAC OS is better than Windows. How so? I love Windows 7. It does everything I need it to do. The few times I have tried to use a Mac, it seems like a toy to me, like it's somehow been dumbed down a little bit, for people who are not good with computers? I don't mean this to sound offensive. I have actually seen this as a selling point. "It's so easy to use." Am I wrong about this?

Obviously people who are very expert users and builders tend to work on PCs, mainly. I am talking about gamers, overclockers, etc.
Click to expand...

It is better, I was a Mac user from the day of the apple 2E. I switched to a PC 6 years ago when the RED and Scratch came out. I spared no expense and bought the best PC modified for Scratch money could buy, (and this computer was advertised on this blog). I returned it a week later. Could render anything. So They sent me a new one, probably the first i7 to hit the market. this had the same horrible performance. That same company created a new relationship with another well known Professional PC Building company and they sent me another PC. Same issues.

I ran this machine for 5 years, never a smooth project. Here are the main issues.

NTFS vs HFS. Everyone backs up there mags with Mac laptops on set so you get your footage on HFS drives. PCs are NTFS so you need special software to see the drives, MacDrive. This software is better now but it sucked a couple years ago. Now you have to copy the footage. PCs and FW800 don't play nice. FW is created by apple so go figure... I never was able to use FW on any of the PC.
Esata worked ok but was not stable at all, lots of bad copies and unmounting, most of the time I would be getting footage on a Rugged drive and there is no Esata, FW didn't work so I would have to use USB, very reliable but very slow. USB saved my life more times than 1

So I had all kinds of I/O issues getting files in and more importantly getting renders out. Tons of renders not completeing due to I/O fallout. I can't tell you how many morning I would walk into my Color grade suite thinking that the machine would have completed rendering all night and it would be sitting there idle on the start up screen. CRASH. its a horrible feeling and way to start your day.

Ok you made it through your render now you need to copy to your footage to a drive, Great here we go again, Cant use the Esata, cant use the FW, ok Ill use the USB, at 7MB/sec. That'll take 17 hours....
now there is USB3 thank god.

In short, My biggest gripe with Windows is it just doesn't command the I/O to professional standards. maybe USB 3 will cure this disease.

Defragging,
We move tons of data in and out of these machines, if you throw a TB onto your raid on a PC, you better give it another couple of hours to defrag or you will not get good playback or perfomance. (non issue with MAC)

Pro Res Gamma Shifts

Your Client wants Pro Res, sorry not going to happen here you need a mac. Ok I realize this an I'm prepared for it, I have a mac sitting in the same Rackbox as the PC, they are networked, I can render to DnxHD and then batch to ProRes in FCP or compressor.
This works but if you have a client in the session grading and then give him the Pro Res that is a render from a DnxHD, there will be gamma shifts, and contrast issues and your client will be pissed and disappointed. This issue has plagued the Finishing world ever since ProRes and Dnxhd came to the market.

With my 2008 Mac with a Nvidia 4000 card it a hit on the cuda cores but everything works, everything copies first try, renders properly, if the client asks for pro res and dnxhd they match. I can hot swap drives. I can have FCP projects open on the same system and grab clip name from cuts that I'm conforming.

In general everything works, renders, copies. The only issue I have had is Nvidia Driver related, and that not PC or Mac.

I'd love to run my 6000 card again, if this HP is awesome and a hardware based Pro Res encoder comes out for PC, Id think about switching back to PC for the cuda cores but until then I'd rather guarantee the least number of problems.

Mac just seems like a toy because its so well streamlined and user friendly.
 
Sergio Perez said:
That's the point, Tom. My 2 cents:

I was a PC Guy in the windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP times (still use an XP system for some corporate communication needs). Its true what you say that a PC works best with someone that is good with computers. This was what I needed to be when I started editing 14 years ago. I needed to know about "control" panel, About "illegal operations" about sometimes having to enter the DOS prompt, about compatibilities and about components from different companies. Some people find this "fun", building your own system and trying to make it work reliably and without hicups. However, with all the fight i had with different components, different drivers, instability, some not so good components failing, etc, I took notice that I was wasting more time in being an engineer than being a creative, or on concentrating on my ideas, my storytelling, what i could achieve with the computer. This is not marketing, but the truth.
Click to expand...

It is true that building your system requires some knowledge, but you don't have to build, it is only a choice. It is true that many built computers simply don't work very well, and much of the blame is shifted to Windows. It is quite amazing just how wide a hardware base Windows can even attempt to support, but it is not perfect.

Systems like the aforementioned HP Z820 ship as 100% turnkey solutions, much like an Apple PC. You boot up, install your software, and you are ready to go. It is as simple as that, there is nothing more to it. Most Windows users I know don't even know what Control Panel means, let alone DOS! (92% computer users worldwide use Windows, and I am willing to bet a vast majority know very little about computers) Windows Update is completely transparent, invisible and automatic and keeps all drivers and system up to date; Maintenance takes care of everything system related. All you need to do is get on with your work, you never have to worry about what the OS is up to.

In fact it is OS X which has proven to be more troublesome to use, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, things like OS updates breaking graphics. Once you start pushing your system, Windows is more forgiving.

Of course, it was not always this way - OS X Tiger was way more usable than Windows XP in its dying days. Things changed with Vista SP1. (Vista itself was a stellar OS at release, unfortunately third party developers took till SP1 time to work out drivers and software)

I am all for simplicity and minimalism, by the way, but I don't think OS X Lion is any simpler than Windows 7 overall.

For anyone worrying about stability, think about the harshest environments where reliability is paramount... How about the International Space Station? There are very good reasons why they use Thinkpads running Windows.
 
I've noticed that Windows (all versions) slows down over time. Do a clean install and everything is zippy. Give it a year and performance seems to almost halve and even the UI feels laggy. Time for another reinstall...

I can run OSX into the ground for years and my machine will feel and perform today as well as it did 5 years ago.

And why do PCs always seem to be "doing something"? When my PC is on even if I'm not using it the hard drive seems to be chugging away at something. My Mac always sits there silently and awaits my return.
 
Jarek Zabczynski said:
I've noticed that Windows (all versions) slows down over time. Do a clean install and everything is zippy. Give it a year and performance seems to almost halve and even the UI feels laggy. Time for another reinstall...

I can run OSX into the ground for years and my machine will feel and perform today as well as it did 5 years ago.
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I have never heard of this before. I don't think I have ever re-installed OS apart from switching hardware.

It is true that boot times drop once you have dozens of programs installed, and if your system is short on RAM it can slow things down, but there's a simple solution to this, simply remove Startup apps. Of course, this is true for all OSes.

Jarek Zabczynski said:
And why do PCs always seem to be "doing something"? When my PC is on even if I'm not using it the hard drive seems to be chugging away at something. My Mac always sits there silently and awaits my return.
Click to expand...

Again, I have no idea what you mean!

I have noticed that almost every complaint against Windows in this thread, I simply don't understand / relate to them as I simply have not experienced these issues.
 
Yeah, another thread derailed by pointless Mac vs PC discussion based on personal experience (nearly useless data).

Today I ate a Cherry snow cone and it hurt my teeth, now I hate Cherry...
 
PatrickW said:
Yeah, another thread derailed by pointless Mac vs PC discussion based on personal experience (nearly useless data).

Today I ate a Cherry snow cone and it hurt my teeth, now I hate Cherry...
Click to expand...

Indeed, I wish there was more discussion about the HP Z820 RED Edition in this thread.
 
Sergio Perez said:
I was a PC Guy in the windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP times (still use an XP system for some corporate communication needs). Its true what you say that a PC works best with someone that is good with computers. This was what I needed to be when I started editing 14 years ago. I needed to know about "control panel", About "illegal operations" about sometimes having to enter the DOS prompt, about compatibilities and about components from different companies. Some people find this "fun", building your own system and trying to make it work reliably and without hicups. However, with all the fight i had with different components, different drivers, instability, some not so good components failing, etc, I took notice that I was wasting more time in being an engineer than being a creative, or on concentrating on my ideas, my storytelling, what i could achieve with the computer. This is not marketing, but the truth.

When I purchased my first mac, i was really a bit lost. I also found, like you, I was in a more "simplistic" environment: where's the control panel, the individual setup icons, the drivers folder, etc. etc.? The truth is, in a Mac, this is all taken care of for you. The concept of a Mac is for the user to "forget" about the engineering and to concentrate on doing things with the computer. And, I have to say, since going to OS X, I have felt a much better relationship with the "computer" as a "tool" for my creativity than in my PC days.
Click to expand...

+100
Very similar feeling over here.
Apple, for the most part, 'gets' user interfaces. And what I came to realize AFTER switching from Windows to Mac, is that it does make a difference, productivity wise and "feeling-wise". And it's good to feel good about the tool you are using 8hours plus a day.

BTW: I have nothing but respect for this HP effort. Just stating my personal feelings.
 
Ohh man the HP Z820 RED Edition.....My only problem is that the case is not hand forged Damascus steel
 
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