I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

[Mark Pugh]

Aha. I've never used anamorphics (have always wanted to, though), so I guess I was unfortunately a little ignorant on that front. What about on the spherical front, though?


They'll at least cover the 5K portion of the Dragon, which was said to be roughly the same area as 4K on the MX.

... Well the client will still be wondering why they are shooting on your glass.
Kevin, the vast majority of user manage to choose glass that covers the camera sensor.
In a FF35 sensor that doesn't have bigger pixels thqn an MX, they'd still be able to shoot S35 lenses without a penalty compared to an MX. Then there's anamorphics, which probably shouldn't be a priority if you've never shot on them.
Your glass that can't cover an MX sensor maybe isn't the best choice either way, going forward.

 

[Zeb B]

For my field and action photography I have a Canon 1DX on order because they dropped the pixel count and improved the pixel quality over my current 1D3. Bigger is not always better. For me 5K is plenty in a 2K world - ISO320 or even a two stop improvement to ISO1280 not so much when projecting the industry trends a year from now when Dragon ships to customers like me. Considering it would be two years after that for the next sensor upgrade means Dragon has to be way ahead of the current industry standard when it ships.

By NAB 2013 everyone will have a solid 4K offering and RAW vs whatever will be settled. It's the DR, S/N, ISO and quality of those pixels that will determine the winner. I'm confident RED understands that the cine battle is now changing shape from simple resolution to other criteria and is going to blow away the industry with their Dragon update.

 

[Les C.]

"Won't worry be happy mon." is not exactly an attitude to help you run a business and build wealth. It originates from a country which, sadly, is among the poorest in the world with terrible levels of child deaths and other heart breaking issues. I would rather work hard and be vigilant. It bugs me when people say this.

Flame and Smoke went down gradually, that didn't happen overnight. The thing is, you want to balance innovation with respect for your loyal, large customers and their investment in gear with you.

I think you still don't quite understand. Graders are TALENT suites are GEAR. Gear is just an investment. It was not the graders who bought the gear back in the day, their employers did, people who made DaVinci possible by rolling the dice on their products. Many are now bankrupt and some can thank, in part BM's attitude of "democratization".

WHat used to be a living wage has in large part been replaced by guys working 20 hours a day alone at home, no longer sharing ideas or their humanity with other except by typing online. This is not an improvement.

It's great to wish for a pretend fantasy world where the cost of the gear you use never affects wages, but in this case it did, and it usually does. It doen't matter what we think should be at some level, as we make a living in what IS.

There are no Epics renting for $300 a day in major cities, at least not this one where cost of living is high. In some cities if you undercut too much you might get a "visit" form your competitors in some form - not something you want. I have heard that is true in Montreal and New York, although since we follow standard pricing except for helping out passionate young people here and there, we've never angered "the powers that be".

Scarlets rent at wildly varying rates. I think they are less money and so are purchased more often by people with no business background and/or no one to advise them on what they need to charge to not go under and make an honest living.

Depreciation is fine. Just not when it's so fast it's giving teh finger to yoru best customers

By "Don't worry, be Happy Mon!", I mean don't worry about things you can't change - and price declines are going to happen for a number of reasons, as I outlined.

I won't even comment on "might get a "visit" form your competitors in some form - not something you want" - Wow! Good luck with that attitude!!

Yes, I've seen people upset over $300/day Epics - and that's just the reality. And that reality will increase as more Epics ship, and will be influenced by a number of other factors including the global economy which affects the US more than many realize - and will affect it more in days to come.

As we're all indirectly in the 'movie business', yes - this is a business - and a business in which very few have any real business training - have no concept of cash flow and are unable to build realistic rental pricing models.

Also from the 'movie business', as Leslie Howard once famously said in 'Gone with the Wind', "The people who have brains and courage come through and the ones who haven't are winnowed out". That's just the reality of life.

In the mean time, the RED is a great camera. I hope that, besides wanting to make money, you love the business and enjoy the camera.

BTW - your comments on the sensor are appreciated. It would have been nice if the user group were able to have input into the decisions about the sensor at a time when we could have affected the outcome. I have no idea if that's possible now, but ... bringing out the negatives as you see them, is a good idea.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

... Well the client will still be wondering why they are shooting on your glass.
Kevin, the vast majority of user manage to choose glass that covers the camera sensor.
In a FF35 sensor that doesn't have bigger pixels thqn an MX, they'd still be able to shoot S35 lenses without a penalty compared to an MX. Then there's anamorphics, which probably shouldn't be a priority if you've never shot on them.
Your glass that can't cover an MX sensor maybe isn't the best choice either way, going forward.

Let's forget the glass I use for the moment - it wasn't the crux of my point. You mention that with a FF35 sensor, that you could shoot S35 lenses without penalty. I say the "penalty" is not high, if existent, on the Dragon as-is - at least to me. I see 5K at S35 as a plus, not a minus. The slightly larger sensor area does not concern me - I'm fine with Super 35 - unless we're talking about look-around, which is nice.

Processing and storage requirements will obviously increase, but remember that we're talking about a product that isn't even beginning to come out until the end of this year, and won't be out in earnest until sometime next year. I don't imagine the situation with Dragon being that much more difficult than when the Epic first came out, and it will only get better over time.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

They still won't cover the sensor, will they?

According to the limited info we have now, 5K on the Dragon should fit just fine within the Super35 / APS-C / DX envelope. So no more wondering if that lens will "cover at 5K". On the other hand, it seems that 6K will have the same dimensions (or very close) to what we have now with 5K. For me, this makes the Dragon a more practical sensor overall.

Things to look forward to with Dragon:

* We can shoot 5K and it fits in the S35 area.
* At least 2 more stops DR.
* Ability to shoot 6K, ~19MP images
* We can shoot 5K and have look-around.

That's the first 5 off the top of my head and I'm sure there are plenty more. The upgrade is not required, it's an at our convenience type of thing. Those buying EPIC packages now that total $50K or more get the upgrade for free. I spent over $50K on my EPIC-M package, but I don't think it qualifies for the free Dragon upgrade due to when I bought it (over a year ago). But hey, I can dream, right?

I really don't see the point of being disappointed over the mostly hypothetical specs of an unreleased sensor product. I do understand those who want a different aspect ratio -- namely 4:3 for use with anamorphic glass. I kinda see that, but the vast majority of users won't be shooting anamorphic and there are several compromises that come with shooting anamorphic anyway. I would like to see a FF35 and even more so a 6x4.5 medium format camera from RED. The EPIC-645 is the camera that really got me all fired up and excited over the EPIC program. To me, that is where it's headed -- you get the best of most worlds with such a camera. Especially if combined with the pixel density and sensor abilities of Dragon. It would have greater resolution than most other medium format systems on the market, plus the ability to shoot motion. You can window-down and shoot with FF35 or S35, APS-C/DX glass, etc.. 6x4.5 MF is 15% smaller than IMAX 15/70 format, and with sensor tech like dragon, we would be looking at more nominal resolution in the same sized area.

Not going to get into the whole RED post argument and all that. I'm done with it. It's over and over-done. Plain and simple, if you find RED post to be difficult, there are two possible explanations. 1> You just don't want to do it. 2> Your skills are lacking and you should quit and pursue a career in fast food.

Of course, that doesn't help winning arguments with producers and directors who make decisions based on FUD, hearsay, personal loyalties, tradition and superstitions... I deal with those guys on occasion. If they pay me to shoot on the Alexa, I shoot on the Alexa. I really don't care, I'll take their money either way. That said, selling 4K gets easier every day. Now that it's blatantly obvious to most everyone that 1080p is on borrowed time, selling 4K is a breeze if they want their content to be relevant in 3 more years. 1080p acquisition and exhibition fits in our pockets, 2K is for tablets. Easy to see that. In 15 months from now when the 4K capable PS4 and XBOX720 release and they sell 4K TV's for under $5K at Best Buy, there's going to be a mad-dash for 4K content. The smart ones are already creating it now. It's not the future, it's now. I'm working on an animation project (which keeps hitting delays, but it's progressing slowly) for a game that will release on multiple platforms, primarily targeted for the new PlayStation. All the graphics, animation sequences, artwork, etc.. all being prepped for 4K / high-DPI displays. 1080p doesn't even fill the screen on the iPad... Every corporate client I have right now that is producing content for the iPad wants 2K, as in greater than 1080p, artwork. Thank you, Apple, for once again making my life easier by showing people that 1080p belongs on mobile devices.

 

[Sean Porter]

According to the limited info we have now, 5K on the Dragon should fit just fine within the Super35 / APS-C / DX envelope. So no more wondering if that lens will "cover at 5K". On the other hand, it seems that 6K will have the same dimensions (or very close) to what we have now with 5K. For me, this makes the Dragon a more practical sensor overall.

Things to look forward to with Dragon:

* We can shoot 5K and it fits in the S35 area.
* At least 2 more stops DR.
* Ability to shoot 6K, ~19MP images
* We can shoot 5K and have look-around.

Exactly. Well said. And there are plenty of DP's out there shooting 4K on Epic because having a choice in glass still matters =) 5K in a S35 frame is what I'm looking forward too.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

By "Don't worry, be Happy Mon!", I mean don't worry about things you can't change - and price declines are going to happen for a number of reasons, as I outlined.

I won't even comment on "might get a "visit" form your competitors in some form - not something you want" - Wow! Good luck with that attitude!!

Yes, I've seen people upset over $300/day Epics - and that's just the reality. And that reality will increase as more Epics ship, and will be influenced by a number of other factors including the global economy which affects the US more than many realize - and will affect it more in days to come.

As we're all indirectly in the 'movie business', yes - this is a business - and a business in which very few have any real business training - have no concept of cash flow and are unable to build realistic rental pricing models.

Also from the 'movie business', as Leslie Howard once famously said in 'Gone with the Wind', "The people who have brains and courage come through and the ones who haven't are winnowed out". That's just the reality of life.

In the mean time, the RED is a great camera. I hope that, besides wanting to make money, you love the business and enjoy the camera.

BTW - your comments on the sensor are appreciated. It would have been nice if the user group were able to have input into the decisions about the sensor at a time when we could have affected the outcome. I have no idea if that's possible now, but ... bringing out the negatives as you see them, is a good idea.

What attitude? I am stating fact. There is no attitude there. I do not "Pay people visits" but a few rental houses in Montreal has apparently been known to - and I don't want such a visit, nor to I want to undercut everybody and bring down the entire business so it doesn't matter because I don't undercut anyway. if that means I have a bad attitude then I'm glad I don't have the kind of good attitude that enjoys visits from muscle-bound thugs. That would be bad for my health.

Yes I enjoy my camera. It's fun that it's here. My wife and I love our cameras, and treat them lovingly.

But really we bought these things as investments. I have many days of shoots as a DP and could rent for those. I just count the number of days per year and estimate depreciation and decide whether buying is worth it to save rentals, how much time it would take to promote rental to others etc. For example I would not buy a C300, because we only need its special skills two or three days a year - so it would be a money-loser in depreciation over rental.

Equipment purchase should not be emotional. With "that attitude" you will go bankrupt in a hurry.

All this talk about strength and courage. What the hell? I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of gear purchase. This has nothing whatsoever to do with how I feel about my career as a DP, how I sell myself as a DP, or anything to do with courageous art or not courageous art.

I do love being a director/DP and am grateful I can make a living at that.

I find that, more and more, unless you say the same trite platitudes as everyone else on Reduser you get blasted for it. Groupthink is not very interesting.

It also, what with Scarlet, is the domain of more and more people for whom this is not how they make a living, who feel that we who MUST look at this as a business should like them think in hobbiest terms, which do not have the obligation to pay the rent for this every month. that's easy when it's a hobby, and it doesn't require any courage. I don't have a day job.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

According to the limited info we have now, 5K on the Dragon should fit just fine within the Super35 / APS-C / DX envelope. So no more wondering if that lens will "cover at 5K". On the other hand, it seems that 6K will have the same dimensions (or very close) to what we have now with 5K. For me, this makes the Dragon a more practical sensor overall.

Things to look forward to with Dragon:

* We can shoot 5K and it fits in the S35 area.
* At least 2 more stops DR.
* Ability to shoot 6K, ~19MP images
* We can shoot 5K and have look-around.

That's the first 5 off the top of my head and I'm sure there are plenty more. The upgrade is not required, it's an at our convenience type of thing. Those buying EPIC packages now that total $50K or more get the upgrade for free. I spent over $50K on my EPIC-M package, but I don't think it qualifies for the free Dragon upgrade due to when I bought it (over a year ago). But hey, I can dream, right?

I really don't see the point of being disappointed over the mostly hypothetical specs of an unreleased sensor product. I do understand those who want a different aspect ratio -- namely 4:3 for use with anamorphic glass. I kinda see that, but the vast majority of users won't be shooting anamorphic and there are several compromises that come with shooting anamorphic anyway. I would like to see a FF35 and even more so a 6x4.5 medium format camera from RED. The EPIC-645 is the camera that really got me all fired up and excited over the EPIC program. To me, that is where it's headed -- you get the best of most worlds with such a camera. Especially if combined with the pixel density and sensor abilities of Dragon. It would have greater resolution than most other medium format systems on the market, plus the ability to shoot motion. You can window-down and shoot with FF35 or S35, APS-C/DX glass, etc.. 6x4.5 MF is 15% smaller than IMAX 15/70 format, and with sensor tech like dragon, we would be looking at more nominal resolution in the same sized area.

Not going to get into the whole RED post argument and all that. I'm done with it. It's over and over-done. Plain and simple, if you find RED post to be difficult, there are two possible explanations. 1> You just don't want to do it. 2> Your skills are lacking and you should quit and pursue a career in fast food.

Of course, that doesn't help winning arguments with producers and directors who make decisions based on FUD, hearsay, personal loyalties, tradition and superstitions... I deal with those guys on occasion. If they pay me to shoot on the Alexa, I shoot on the Alexa. I really don't care, I'll take their money either way. That said, selling 4K gets easier every day. Now that it's blatantly obvious to most everyone that 1080p is on borrowed time, selling 4K is a breeze if they want their content to be relevant in 3 more years. 1080p acquisition and exhibition fits in our pockets, 2K is for tablets. Easy to see that. In 15 months from now when the 4K capable PS4 and XBOX720 release and they sell 4K TV's for under $5K at Best Buy, there's going to be a mad-dash for 4K content. The smart ones are already creating it now. It's not the future, it's now. I'm working on an animation project (which keeps hitting delays, but it's progressing slowly) for a game that will release on multiple platforms, primarily targeted for the new PlayStation. All the graphics, animation sequences, artwork, etc.. all being prepped for 4K / high-DPI displays. 1080p doesn't even fill the screen on the iPad... Every corporate client I have right now that is producing content for the iPad wants 2K, as in greater than 1080p, artwork. Thank you, Apple, for once again making my life easier by showing people that 1080p belongs on mobile devices.

Jeff I have worked on post on countless Red projects. I am a beta tester on countless post tools.

You talk about a world, again, filled with people who "should" be a certain way. You also have an apparently less proactive and respectful approach toward you clients than I do. They are doing their best. They are not techs. I do not just throw my hands up angrily and say "whatever" when they ask for something I consider ill-advised. I make a lot of friends that way in the long run, and build trust.

I was trying to illicit constructive discussion and voice my opinion.

 

[Jon Jones]

$300 a day for epics... I charge less than that and I come with my camera... I would welcome any "visit" from unwelcome guests.

By "Don't worry, be Happy Mon!", I mean don't worry about things you can't change - and price declines are going to happen for a number of reasons, as I outlined.

I won't even comment on "might get a "visit" form your competitors in some form - not something you want" - Wow! Good luck with that attitude!!

Yes, I've seen people upset over $300/day Epics - and that's just the reality. And that reality will increase as more Epics ship, and will be influenced by a number of other factors including the global economy which affects the US more than many realize - and will affect it more in days to come.

As we're all indirectly in the 'movie business', yes - this is a business - and a business in which very few have any real business training - have no concept of cash flow and are unable to build realistic rental pricing models.

Also from the 'movie business', as Leslie Howard once famously said in 'Gone with the Wind', "The people who have brains and courage come through and the ones who haven't are winnowed out". That's just the reality of life.

In the mean time, the RED is a great camera. I hope that, besides wanting to make money, you love the business and enjoy the camera.

BTW - your comments on the sensor are appreciated. It would have been nice if the user group were able to have input into the decisions about the sensor at a time when we could have affected the outcome. I have no idea if that's possible now, but ... bringing out the negatives as you see them, is a good idea.

 

[Tom Lowe]

This discussion of pixel dimensions versus sensitivity is happening in the still camera forums too. I mean, if pixels were all that mattered, did everyone junk their Canons for the Nikon D800? (Tom -- did you get a Nikon D800?)

Yes, I am switching to the D800. I have many reasons for this, but one of them is that I can gut the D800, put a PL mount on it, and still shoot for a 4K finish, even with PL lenses such as Master Primes.

I wonder what percentage of the people who are on this thread arguing that 6K resolution is not needed have ever posted a serious project at 4K? My guess is..... very few.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Why are we talking about a sensor that hasn't even come out yet? This whole thread baffles me. Seriously. We have NO IDEA what the footage even looks like. I have to imagine the LOW LIGHT on Dragon will be revolutionary. RED isn't stupid. The know where the trend in low-light is going, from the F3, FS100, Alexa, to C300. They know they can't deliver anything less than that. And given their INCREDIBLY COMPETITIVE NATURE (hello??? "Bazooka to a knife fight" remember that???)....I have to imagine DRAGON will have some truly SICK low light capabilities. It's in RED'S NATURE to fuck with the competition. I expect nothing less from them.

 

[Jon Jones]

I love the idea of 6k, I can't wait to shoot it! I am ordering 2 more RED rockets just so I can have a more productive workflow. Those that are belly aching don't know what their talking about, I don't care what their rebuttal is either, that whole complaining thing really just isn't for me. Tech moves forward with other tech, supply and demand, it's a simple process really.

Yes, I am switching to the D800. I have many reasons for this, but one of them is that I can gut the D800, put a PL mount on it, and still shoot for a 4K finish, even with PL lenses such as Master Primes.

I wonder what percentage of the people who are on this thread arguing that 6K resolution is not needed have ever posted a serious project at 4K? My guess is..... very few.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I wonder what percentage of the people who are on this thread arguing that 6K resolution is not needed have ever posted a serious project at 4K? My guess is..... very few.

I guess that's the point.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I guess that's the point.

If that is the point, it is extraordinarily short-sighted. Red is about 4K finishes. If certain people are only concerned with 2K finishes, why are they here arguing to keep the resolution low on a camera and sensor aimed squarely at 4K finishers?

 

[Mark Pugh]

LOW?
4k wasn't low until last year.
5k is low now?

If the Epic is aimed squarely at 4k finishes, then Red shouldn't have been used on the 99.9 percent of productions that didn't come up to that.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Tom there's no need to get offensive.
Your projects are brilliant, and your techniques superb.
Super high resolution is your ally.

Your projects are also highly unusual.
Most people don't buy Red's products to shoot what you shoot.
More power to you.
Please respect that most people's needs and subjects differ from where your creative passions lie.
Also respect that DPs and directors don't normally choose mastering formats.
If people are here "arguing" for anything as pathetic as the needs of a 2k master, it's because they live in a world that requires them to be concerned about 2k masters, and rarely anything greater.
The vast majority of Epic projects are ones that will screen in the next few months, or maybe even next week.

Your viewpoint, like Terrence Mallick's, is cosmic, which is a blessing for humanity! Seriously! I'm not taking the proverbial p*%#. So is Jim's.

Please understand many people's real world needs may differ slightly, though.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Please respect that most people's needs and subjects differ from where your creative passions lie.

Tom understands some people don't need higher resolutions but if you look at the pole started today you will see that the majority of Redusers do want 6K or higher.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Well, it's weird, because since EPIC came out, and before the smaller 6k pixels of Dragon were announced , I can't recall a single Epic user posting:

"5k just isn't enough for my super 35 sensor!! This MX is CRAP! I want and need 6k NOW!"

If they had said that, they'd have been howled at for being a whining ingrate!!!

Today, if someone says:
"I love my EPIC.
5k, as promised, is enough for everything I do now and into the near future, or at least the producers/clients/networks/distributors think so... I feel now that absolutely maximum available DR and low light capabilities would be great, but not bigger files... "

...they are morons or whining ingrates with no vision!?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Why are we talking about a sensor that hasn't even come out yet? This whole thread baffles me. Seriously. We have NO IDEA what the footage even looks like. I have to imagine the LOW LIGHT on Dragon will be revolutionary. RED isn't stupid. The know where the trend in low-light is going, from the F3, FS100, Alexa, to C300. They know they can't deliver anything less than that. And given their INCREDIBLY COMPETITIVE NATURE (hello??? "Bazooka to a knife fight" remember that???)....I have to imagine DRAGON will have some truly SICK low light capabilities. It's in RED'S NATURE to fuck with the competition. I expect nothing less from them.

To summarize your comment: "Red is brilliant so let's not even try to help them. Let's wait till they're done with the sensor (and its' too late) to offer any comments or suggestions" Others say basically "If you don't like it just don't buy it." I would expect more from someone whom I felt had my back, and I feel we owe Jim more too.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well, it's weird, because since EPIC came out, and before the smaller 6k pixels of Dragon were announced , I can't recall a single Epic user posting:

"5k just isn't enough for my super 35 sensor!! This MX is CRAP! I want and need 6k NOW!"

and if they had, they'd have been howled at for being a whining ingrate!!!

Now, If someone says:
"I love my EPIC. 5k, as promised, is enough for everything I do now and into the near future, or at least the producers/clients/networks/distributors think so... I feel now that absolutely maximum available DR and low light capabilities... "

...they are morons or whining ingrates!?

Thanks Mark. I mean it.