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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is now a good time to buy the Scarlet?

Al Lougher said:
Les, are you saying that if Dragon is announced it will be available in the Scarlet for the same price?
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Absolutely not! But, my 'guess' would be that the cost of a new Scarlet/Dragon would be less than the total cost of an upgraded one.

But, who knows? The original RED owners got quite a deal to upgrade to Epics. And that was a very good business practice.Maybe RED will do it for no penalty for the first group of beta Scarlet users? But ... do expect the Scarlet/Dragon to be higher priced than the current Scarlet.

Scott Crawley said:
I don't know if that is what Les was saying, but the answer to the larger question appears to be No. Red has made it fairly clear that a Scarlet to Dragon upgrade will come with specs and a price tag that will bring it to parity with Epic. Expect your all in cost to =$34,500 + whatever Dragon for Epic costs...

So $24,800+Epic Dragon upgrade cost? Maybe close to $30K?
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I ?think? I remember that an upgraded Scarlet, even though they are replacing a lot of chips, will not be as fast or capable as an Epic.
 
From someone is having a blast shooting with my Scarlet - now is a GREAT time to purchase one. You'll never look back! :thumbup:
 
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Les C. said:
I ?think? I remember that an upgraded Scarlet, even though they are replacing a lot of chips, will not be as fast or capable as an Epic.
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I remember them saying that about the production model Scarlet, but the upgrade was a different affair. My understanding was that the upgrade for Scarlet would entail removing any and all boards that contained slower processing and replacing them with standard Epic boards or perhaps newer Epic Dragon boards. It is apparently the only way to get little Scarlet up to the specs required to handle the data that Dragon produces. Either way the end result will be a Scarlet that is equal to Epic. I forget if I got this from a post of Jim's, Jarred's or both.

That seems to make the most sense. Any other scenario would seem to involve designing a set of boards unique to Scarlet Dragon, and that isn't as easy for Red as it is to just use the same components as Epic.

We will just have to wait and see on that one. Anything could happen, and my memory could be faulty.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
I remember them saying that about the production model Scarlet, but the upgrade was a different affair. My understanding was that the upgrade for Scarlet would entail removing any and all boards that contained slower processing and replacing them with standard Epic boards or perhaps newer Epic Dragon boards. It is apparently the only way to get little Scarlet up to the specs required to handle the data that Dragon produces. Either way the end result will be a Scarlet that is equal to Epic. I forget if I got this from a post of Jim's, Jarred's or both.

That seems to make the most sense. Any other scenario would seem to involve designing a set of boards unique to Scarlet Dragon, and that isn't as easy for Red as it is to just use the same components as Epic.

We will just have to wait and see on that one. Anything could happen, and my memory could be faulty.
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Here's the definitive answer from Jannard http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...T-ANNOUNCEMENT&p=855514&viewfull=1#post855514

Can Scarlet-X be upgraded to the new Dragon sensor when it is released?
Yes. However the upgrade will be more expensive than upgrading an EPIC due to the necessity to change several primary boards. There will still be data rate limitations to Scarlet after the upgrade as compared with EPIC.

When will the Dragon sensor upgrade be available?
2nd half of 2012.
 
They haven't been QUITE so specific, gang. The only thing that has been stated about Dragon is that it will require certain boards in Scarlet to be replaced, while it won't have such requirements for Epic. This means that the upgrade will cost more for Scarlet than for Epic.

They have not stated that the upgrade would put the framerates on par with Epic. Or that it would bring both cameras in line. Or that it would bring the cost in line. Please, don't draw more conclusions or assumptions than we have to. The only "fact" (and I use quotes there for a reason) is that Dragon will cost more for Scarlet than for Epic.

It is good to remember that the sensor (the thing that sees the light) is Dragon. The Processing boards (the thing that interprets what the light sees) are two entirely different things. Referring to Sensor+Boards as "Dragon" would be a misnomer.


Also, more in line with the topic, I can tell you that every time I turn my camera on and start using it, I'm glad I got a Scarlet over anything else out there. Personal preference, maybe, but damn do I love it.
 
Cool, I can keep both kidneys... Maybe. Thanks.

Les C. said:
Here's the definitive answer from Jannard http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...T-ANNOUNCEMENT&p=855514&viewfull=1#post855514

Can Scarlet-X be upgraded to the new Dragon sensor when it is released?
Yes. However the upgrade will be more expensive than upgrading an EPIC due to the necessity to change several primary boards. There will still be data rate limitations to Scarlet after the upgrade as compared with EPIC.

When will the Dragon sensor upgrade be available?
2nd half of 2012.
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I appreciate that your memory of things is different than mine, and mine may be incorrect. However, unless the existing socket and accompanying chipset can accommodate Dragon, new boards for Dragon will be required... Hence the nomenclature. It's all presumptuous on my part so I accept that it could all be in error.

Nick Pasquariello said:
It is good to remember that the sensor (the thing that sees the light) is Dragon. The Processing boards (the thing that interprets what the light sees) are two entirely different things. Referring to Sensor+Boards as "Dragon" would be a misnomer.
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Getting back to the question at hand, if you accept the idea that Red will not be obsoleting their new cameras anytime soon, then the only obvious reason to wait at this point would be if you are considering possible appearance of something better from the competition at one of the coming trade shows. If that possibility interests you, then by all means wait another month or two.
 
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Scott Crawley said:

Getting back to the question at hand, if you accept the idea that Red will not be obsoleting their new cameras anytime soon, then the only obvious reason to wait at this point would be if you are considering possible appearance of something better from the competition at one of the coming trade shows. If that possibility interests you, then by all means wait another month or two.
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Thanks Scott, where I was heading was if I buy the Scarlet now will I be kicking myself a month from now because Scarlet-X version 2.0 is released for same price, upgraded insides etc.

Cheers
Al.
 
:-) Nah, that seems to run contrary to Red's current strategy. It's in their tag line: Obsolesence Obsolete.

Like Terry and Nick I am enamoured with Scarlet and couldn't advise against her, or Jim for that matter.

Al Lougher said:
Thanks Scott, where I was heading was if I buy the Scarlet now will I be kicking myself a month from now because Scarlet-X version 2.0 is released for same price, upgraded insides etc.

Cheers
Al.
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Mark Toia said:
hahahahaha...

EPIC of go home! Scarlets make great Crash cameras :)


EDIT:
Actually you can shoot a proper 4k feature film on a scarlet :) and then put it in the explosion close up shots!
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Wish I could throw my money and gear around like that haha...

Anyways, It depends what you need Al. Take a look at your funds, if your going to do it, make sure you can afford all the accessories to put together a full kit. Make sure the camera gives you what you need. If it meets your needs and you can afford it go for it if you feel its a good move. I feel like I would've sat back and watched a little longer to see what NAB would've brought, but I've also gotten to work where I wouldn't have been working if I didn't have it. You have to evaluate each aspect of it.
 
I will say this, 4k Scarlet is today.

NAB will present new cameras and new technology. Red's got an upgrade path. Whatever "the other guys" have often represent a product that has an EOL cycle. Scarlet and Epic are set for an upgrade path and you don't need to buy a new camera every year or two. You get to upgrade your own camera and that should last a couple years and maybe up to 3 or 4 with our current tech path.

4k+ and in camera 16bit raw is what Red does. If you want that, you've come to the right shop.
 
And What about the Possibility of Upgrading Scarlets by Using 'Cast off' Epic Chips ?

And What about the Possibility of Upgrading Scarlets by Using 'Cast off' Epic Chips ?

Scott Crawley said:
That would be brilliant! ... I missed that one though. Very cool.
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Just a thought experiment .. suppose Epics go in for the major overhaul needed for the Dragon sensor. What if RED needs to pull out virtually all the original Epic chips & replece them with Dragon-capable chips & the Dragon sensor.

What does RED do with all these cast off Epic chips ? Why not use them to offer upgrades to Scarlet users who want an upgrade .. but not all the way to Dragon ?

... just a thought ... and assumes a whole lot ...

Serge
 
Phil Holland said:
I will say this, 4k Scarlet is today.

NAB will present new cameras and new technology. Red's got an upgrade path. Whatever "the other guys" have often represent a product that has an EOL cycle. Scarlet and Epic are set for an upgrade path and you don't need to buy a new camera every year or two. You get to upgrade your own camera and that should last a couple years and maybe up to 3 or 4 with our current tech path.

4k+ and in camera 16bit raw is what Red does. If you want that, you've come to the right shop.
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This is true, but when you look at it we're still spending more or the same. This is an example, say the Sony comes out and costs 7-8K, So you spend that much, then an upgrade to be able to shoot 4K is another 2-3 grand, your at 11, and accessories are MUCH cheaper. I've spent the cost of that camera on media.

Where as RED tried to essentially make something future-proof, which is impossible, it might be obtainable for a year or two, but then we're paying for something new to be ahead of the game. Sure no one has caught RED yet but when they do RED will do something to put you back on top which still costs money. I look at it that I could've essentially bought 3 full Sony kits for what I've spent on my RED Scarlet kit. I'm not arguing the point that RED isn't the best right now, I'm just saying your always going to have to pay for something new. So its under 10 grand? Thats still a crap load of money to someone like me. If I can't afford the upgrade it doesn't matter to me after already spending a ton of money on a Scarlet. I'm also not saying I'd rather buy Sony. I'm just saying as impressive as the Scarlet is it doesn't come without a very hefty price tag, and as new and awesome it is.

Your still gonna spend money on upgrades, modular items, which in the end puts you well over the costs of other cameras. I'm not saying not to buy a RED i'm just saying it is a hefty price and you can't escape the money spending. The upgrade path is awesome, but in the end I think the prices will more or less even out between the cost of other companies cameras and the cost of gear for those cameras. Then again we don't know the price of the upgrade, it could shock us all. Just saying its pricey from either perspective IMO.
 
Serge Polevitzky said:
Just a thought experiment .. suppose Epics go in for the major overhaul needed for the Dragon sensor. What if RED needs to pull out virtually all the original Epic chips & replece them with Dragon-capable chips & the Dragon sensor.

What does RED do with all these cast off Epic chips ? Why not use them to offer upgrades to Scarlet users who want an upgrade .. but not all the way to Dragon ?

... just a thought ... and assumes a whole lot ...

Serge
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I thought about this the other day too. There are going to be a ton of cameras going back to RED which will be interesting to see how they handle it. To my understanding they're only going to have to replace the sensor on the Epics. Upgrades on Scarlets will cost more since it will require you to have to replace the ASIC Chip and Sensor.
 
I think it's a good time to order ... i think of things a bit differently. About half of your cost is the "brain", and the other half are parts like mounts, screens, redmote, batteries, plates, ssd's, ssd station ... all the stuff that goes around the brain. RED is a component based approach that is implicitly flexible and future proof(the red one is still a awesome camera). The beauty of the epic/scarlet on the same base ... is all the non-brain stuff is totally compatible and i don't see that changing. On the other hand, it can be frustrating having a brain without the items needed to make it functional - and with things coming out of backorder ... you will not have to wait long for the non-brain items. My gut feel(total all out guess), is when the dragon comes out ... there's going to be a feeding frenzy ... which could really delay your project.
 
4k and 16 bit RAW and 13.5 stops for under 16 grand for the package. I would get 2 more 64GB SSDs, a quad charger and few redvolts and you're set. no other brand can beat that.
 
Unless the sony RAW recorder is less than $7,000 (also it doesn't shoot 4k yet) its no competition.

Till someone makes a 4k camera that shoots raw onboard the RED line is without competition.
 
Arnold F. said:
I think it remains to be seen how "upgradeable" or "future proof" my Scarlet will be. Don't get me wrong, I'd love my camera to be upgradeable for decades but I'd be stupid not to understand that marketing terms are most useful for marketing. Time will tell.
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Yeah surely we can rule out decades :) But it's a very interesting question. Just how far can it carry...

Could Scarlet X still be a camera capable of pulling rentals and making feature films in ten years at an acceptable level of quality? Based on RED one's history
our current sensor upgrade path and how far RED have been ahead of the curve with their -- 1080 is not enough / 4K gambit. Even in our brave new digital world, quite incredibly, we can probably answer yes. Even more incredibly, the same can still be said for the RED one.

Your right of course, any positive can and will be used as a marketing term. "Obsolescence obsolete" is a powerful marketing line. However I also believe it is as it was designed to be, good business meets a meaningful philosophy. And it's one I strongly agree with as a human being and was enamoured by long before i could afford to buy into RED personally. The fact it benefits me as a consumer is also great of course.

But like most philosophies it must still give way to the realities and practicalities of business and technological evolution, so your right "obsolescence obsolete this decade" may indeed prove closer to the fact. Though for mine at least, this would not relegate the philosophy to being only a "marketing term" or heavily mitigate it's value. It's just where the rubber of idealism meets the reality of the road I think.

Best

Lliam
 
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