Dual System Record Instructions for SD 744t and Scarlet/Epic (how to use timecode)

[PatrickFaith]

These instructions use timecode to sync sound recorded on a 744t to video recorded on a scarlet.
My exact config:

RED Sync to bnc cable (the epic/scarlet one ... has 3 bnc's, if you use red one, you need the 2 bnc cable).
bnc2bnc connector sound device cable "xl-lb2 lemo to BNC i/O cable" ( most film productions do it fancier then this).
Sound Device 744t.
sennheiser 416.
Adobe Premiere.
Windows 7.

Reset the sound device 744t to "film" (this put the sound device into a default state, this is almost the same as default but put's mic 1&2 into phantom mode, it only needs to occur once when you get the 744t).On the scarlet, set the timecode to external.(I also am always in QHD mode, 24 fps, 1/24th time ... with the project set a 24 fps, i haven't tested the other modes).Turn off both the 744t and scarlet/epic (i'm not sure this is necessary ... but i'm paranoid on connecting cables with power on). Connect your mic's (i use a Seinheiser 416, by default you get 4 lines recording btw). Connect the sound device cable "xl-lb2 lemo to BNC i/O cable) to the 744t time code lemo connector. Connect a bnc-2-bnc connecter to the sound device cable bnc. Connect a 3 bnc to sync cable (from red, it's a 2 bnc for red one) to the scarlet/epic. Connect the Yellow bnc of the scarlet's sync cable to the bnc-2-bnc connector.

You should now have your 744t connected to your scarlet. Hook up your mics (with film mode, mic 1& 2 are default phantom btw). Turn on you sound device 744t. Turn on your scarlet/epic. You should notice that the times are exactly the same on the scarlet and the sound device(default modes auto send the timecode). I always hit the "menu" and the "hdd" button .... then do the menu select on "jam zero". You can now disconnect the yellow BNC connector (atleast I have noticed no drift in a hour), this allows free movement of the camera.

Hit Record on the 744t and Hit record on the scarlet. Clap your hands ( I was getting some fancy timecode clapper, this ended up working perty good for me and a lot cheaper). Turn power off on the scarlet, then 744t. Take out the red ssd, and the sandisk from the 744t (it also records to internal disk ... so u can also connect the 774t to your computer if u want to copy that way). Copy the RED R3d files to some folder on your computer. Copy the wav files from the sound device to some folder on your computer.

Final Steps to Verify using adobe premiere, so Open Adobe Premiere (create a project.drag the r3d and wave file into the adobe project).

---------------------- next few steps are "optional" ... not sure exactly why some of this happens ---------------
To shift the audio by one frame (if your having problems with audio offset this is a possible tweak): right click wav file in project panel, select modify -> timecode change frame from 00 to 01, should have "set at beginning" click "ok".

If your .wav files are not showing the time code in "media start"column ... i.e. the media start time should not be a string of zero's then do thisn the main menu click Edit->preferences->media .... then click on the "media cache database" "clean"also there are three fields there, i'm finding good look having it set at 24 fps, use media source and start at 0 (my manual claps seem to have less frame issues). This btw is some weird bug, will be fixed soon i hope(happens to me every every now and then).

Back to "normal" things ..... Select the video clip you wish to merge audio clips to. Note that you can only have one video clip in any merged clip. Control-click audio and video clip. right click for menu to and select "Merge Clips" and select timecode. The Merge Clips dialog launches. Choose - Based on matching timecode.

A new file should be in your project area in premiere, drag that to the time line ... and the sound will be synced. In the timeline, find where your hands clap, zoom into the exact frame, you should be able to see your hands clap at the same exact frame you hear the clap.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Reset the sound device 744t to "film",,,

What?

I have a much easier idea:

1) set the 744t to time of day

2) jam the camera to the 744t

3) roll the 744t and the camera

4) clap a slate

5) wait five minutes

6) clap the slate again

7) stop the camera and 744t. Remove the files. Bring them into an editing program and lock them together. See if they hold sync from start to finish. If both are at 23.98 (typical), there should be no problem.

Note that there are typically offsets of a frame or two in many digital camera systems. It's not crucial, as long as it doesn't drift. Note also that this entire process is much easier if you have a timecode slate.

Multiple cameras are harder, and I also believe the process is more reliable if you put a timecode jam box like the Denecke or the Ambient on the camera.

 

[PatrickFaith]

... Note also that this entire process is much easier if you have a timecode slate.
Multiple cameras are harder, and I also believe the process is more reliable if you put a timecode jam box like the Denecke or the Ambient on the camera.

Multiple people have recommended getting "Denecke TS-C Compact Time Code Slate" and "Denecke SB-T Time Code Generator / Reader and Tri-Level Sync Box" for the on board camera sync - then doing the connection via them(actually the recommendations are a bit vague ... I'm stating the full name of the products to make sure I'm getting it right). This is about another $2k ... which pushes me over my original [ based assuming scarlet is recording audio] sound budget ... live and learn.

[did more testing, found i don't need the slate nor the sync box ... atleast for my use cases, also using the slate and sync box required two more cables, which added complexity]

So modified my steps slightly ... added a physical hand clap ... and a adobe procedure to timecode modify the wave file. (there are about 4 threads that are btw on frame offsets problems, that this method avoids/solves, at least for simple productions).

 

[Marc Wielage]

I mean no disrespect, but the other thing you can do is hire a pro sound mixer and have them be responsible for all timecode and sound on the set. The mixer can provide the timecode generators and timecode slates needed without you having to go out and spend $2000 on them (and in truth, it's more like $2300, brand new, for just one SB-T and one TS-3 slate). That way, the camera crew only has to be responsible for the camera, lenses, data storage, monitoring, lighting, grip gear, camera mounts, and so on -- which is more than enough for most people.

You can also rent this gear from many pro sound dealers, like Coffey and Location Sound. Most of the LA companies will ship to Northern California, and they do weekly rates fairly inexpensively. This will cost you a fraction of the purchase price, even if it's over a period of several weeks.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I mean no disrespect ... .

Agreed on hiring professionals - on all my normal stuff there's professional mixers, sound engineers, animators, sfx, producers. But industry is so huge/segmented, many of us are really distanced from the sound people (i.e. math/finance guys may comments on talents voice as it relates to demographics, or whine wanting clear voice over realistic audio, but often have no idea even how the mixing/sound is contracted out). The 744t/scarlet is for a personal/charity project I'm doing which would have no chance of funding in the normal process. Thus in the time/quality/$ trade ... I've chosen long shoot time and high quality to focus on, which prohibits renting as being cost effective. Otherwise I agree completely for normal projects.

 

[Aras Taki]

Is there a timecode cable on the market that works with Epic an a SD744T other than using these 2 Lemo-to-bnc cables? Both devices uses a lemo connecter for TC but they seem to be different sizes and pins? No cable out there that has the SD744T connector in one end and the Epic connector in the other?

 

[PatrickFaith]

Is there a timecode cable on the market that works with Epic an a SD744T other than using these 2 Lemo-to-bnc cables? Both devices uses a lemo connecter for TC but they seem to be different sizes and pins? No cable out there that has the SD744T connector in one end and the Epic connector in the other?

There's a couple of guys in reduser that make up cables, prices are perty good (chime in ... I can't remember their names) ... but I haven't found anything from like b & h where you can just directly order. I have no idea why lemo's are all slightly different, the connectors for the RED i/o module i think will work ??? (i'm doing fairly low cost stuff with the scarlet, but that route might make more sense for you). [added] Their's a wooden camera module btw that is perty nice ... which avoids the cable I am using that hooks to the scarlet.

Way more pro and with less hacky wires then how i did it, but more expensive is a "Denecke TS-C Compact Time Code Slate" with a timecode sync box. I'm going to cut over to this way soon, which will end up costing me another $2k.

 

[Sebastian Winkels]

I would like to ask some related questions.
Thanks a lot for sharing any hands-on experience!

1) When working without fixed cables between one Epic/Scarlet and the 744t, do you absolutely need to keep a Lockit, Denecke or other TC jam box attached to the camera?
2) How accurately and how long is the camera holding the TC after getting it from the 744t, when not having a jam box attached?
3) Is it similar compared to working with 744t and a Sony EX3 (where I never missed having a Lockit and could just jam from the 744t every 3 - 4 hours)?
4) Will the Epic/Scarlet loose sync, when rebooting or changing the battery?

I was reading through so many audio posts today, but answers were not 100% clear on this.
Hope I'm not the only one figuring out, if getting a jam box is a must...

 

[PatrickFaith]

Deleting my comments ... Marc's following post is much more definitive.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Is there a timecode cable on the market that works with Epic an a SD744T other than using these 2 Lemo-to-bnc cables? Both devices uses a lemo connecter for TC but they seem to be different sizes and pins? No cable out there that has the SD744T connector in one end and the Epic connector in the other?

Yes, you can get custom cables made by all the major Pro Audio companies in the world. In the U.S., I'd recommend Coffey Sound, Location Sound Corp., and Wilcox Sound in LA; Tai Audio in Orlando, Florida; Trew Audio in Nashville and also Toronto; and Gotham Sound and Professional Sound Services in NYC. The SD 744t uses the standard 5-pin Lemo connector, which is used on many (if not most) pro sound and timecode devices. The 4-pin Lemo timecode input on the Epic and Scarlet are not standard on any other camera, but this configuration can be custom-wired with no problem. The advantage of custom wiring is that you can make the cable exactly as long or as short as you need for your particular configuration. Be warned that the Lemo connectors are not cheap (about $35-$40 per connector).

1) When working without fixed cables between one Epic/Scarlet and the 744t, do you absolutely need to keep a Lockit, Denecke or other TC jam box attached to the camera?

In my opinion, yes.

2) How accurately and how long is the camera holding the TC after getting it from the 744t, when not having a jam box attached?

Generally until the camera crashes or is powered down. I have seen cameras drift a couple of frames in, say, a 4-hour period -- and this goes for all manufacturers, not just Red. An external timecode box that has a TCXO (temperature controlled crystal oscillator) is generally guaranteed to not drift more than a frame every 10-12 hours or so.

3) Is it similar compared to working with 744t and a Sony EX3 (where I never missed having a Lockit and could just jam from the 744t every 3 - 4 hours)?

The Sony EX3 is a pretty reliable camera in terms of timecode.

4) Will the Epic/Scarlet lose sync, when rebooting or changing the battery?

The older Reds did, and in fairness to Red, I've seen the older Sony F900's also lose timecode during a crash or battery change. My preference is always to have a timecode box on the camera, and either run the camera in external or jam it whenever possible, especially on a reboot, a drive change, a battery change, a crash, or when the crew takes a long break (like lunch).

 

[Sebastian Winkels]

Thanks a lot for your answers!

As I'm prepping for doc work, every additional box on the camera is my enemy.
But I'm getting used to the fact that a TC jam box is obviously neccessary...

Would it be OK to use this older model:
Ambient ACL201-II (dark grey body)

I found one in a used equipment market for 340,- EUR.
Would I have to pick a newer version (red, green or blue body) or are they basically similar?

 

[Marc Wielage]

I would talk to Ambient directly if you're over there:

Ambient Recording GmbH
Schleißheimerstraße 181c
80797 München
Munich,
GERMANY
+49 (0)89 360 55 100
http://www.ambient.de

 

[PatrickFaith]

Marc ... if you where choosing between "Denecke SB-T" and "Denecke SB-3" which would you choose? Would I need the extra functions of the SB-T?

Also, for the time code slate, what are people using/liking with the sb-t and sb-3 ?

Related question, why Ambient vs Denecke ... are they both about the same quality?

 

[Marc Wielage]

The SB-T adds external tri-level sync, which connects to the Red's Genlock input. This is a must-have for multi-camera or 3D projects. For just a single camera, I think just jamming timecode every so often is fine, and I've had no problem with that.

I'm a big fan of the full-size Denecke TS-3 slate with the backlight. Makes it much easier to read the numbers in dark interiors. You can also kill the backlighting and go to brighter TC numbers for exteriors.

Ambient vs. Denecke is kind of a "BMW vs. Mercedes" question: both very high quality, both not cheap, both very widely used. I think Ambient is more widely found in Europe, and Denecke is more widely used in America, but both are very good, rock solid. I like the support from Denecke here in LA, so that's why I prefer them myself.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Related question, why Ambient vs Denecke ... are they both about the same quality?

Patrick,

When Sound Devices first released the 744T, the time code circuitry inside was supplied by Ambient, so it was a natural fit to use their lock-it boxes.
I seem to recall that they (SD) either changed the subcontractor or began manufacturing that board themselves about 3 years ago. My memory of that conversation is fuzzy - will be meeting with someone from SD next Thursday - I'll ask the historical question.

Sebastian,
As far as purchasing an older, used lock-it box on eBay - you might want to sit on the sidelines. The 201 is several generations old - definitely lacking in features that you may find essential.

Ambient is in the process of releasing an upgrade (the ACL204) which has a number of enhancements including:
an OLED display,
the ability to program in an offset,
dual TC outputs to drive a 3D rig -
and they have made it smarter inside to avoid some common "operator errors".

Very nice additions - they have been paying attention and listening to their customer base.

Was announced as being available starting in February - do not know if they met that delivery timeline. If anyone is better informed about the "product release" status, please post.



As far as the slates, I agree with Marc - the TS-3 Deneke is the way to go.
However, I still keep the smaller version (The Dcode TS-C) in my camera aks bag - great for everyday use.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Marc, thanks ... seems like the SB-T is over kill for me ... and that saves me $400 !!! I will look at the TS-3, I'm currently using your suggestion of syncing at the start, then manually slating on takes (to just make sure things don't drift).

Brian, that new ability of the ambient to deal with offsets would be real nice. I'm think I can hold off for now on having a portable sync device on camera since my upfront scenes shoot with one camera, and only have 2 mic's running, later scenes are more complex with large jibs outside, etc ... so the offset would be a help.

Thanks again guys for helping out us vdslr guys that are moving to features & pro gear.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Patrick,

One more suggestion for dual system:

Send a wireless link off of your mixer or recorder to one of the camera audio inputs.
You can modify a wireless belt pack transmitter if you don't have a dedicated plug-in transmitter by replacing the lav mic with a XLR - resulting in a XLR to lemo cable. (Another reason never to throw away a bad lav - that lemo end is an asset)

Don't worry too much about the quality on the camera track (you can use a lower cost transmitter / receiver combination) because you will only be using it as a reference / scratch track.
Editing systems are beginning to incorporate the ability to match audio waveforms - bringing everything into sync is just a few keystrokes.

Kind of scary - the old adage of "Fixing it in post" used to mean spending megabucks to make it right. With the way that editing system technologies are evolving, this approach could actually be more efficient and save some money.

 

[Sam Edwards]

Thanks Folks. A very useful thread.

 

[Mike P.]

Sorry for reviving this thread, but Patrick/Mark/Sebastian - I'm going to be using a 744t to jam the camera, but do NOT have access to a timecode box for a shoot I have next week. Fortunately it's a very laid back (and simple) job, but I'd still like to see if I can get this to work adequately.

Patrick, did you find out of you could disconnect RED's TC/Genlock/Sync 4-pin lemo cable from the camera while it's on? Is it hot swappable or can it fry the camera somehow (that would seem like a massive design flaw)? Being that I won't have a lockit box, I was hoping I could simply re-jam as frequently as possible (hourly?). If that means I'll have to power-down, connect cable, power-up to get TC from 744t, power-down to disconnect cable, and then re-power up to shoot (hopefully without the TC being off after the power down, which apparently happens), then I most definitely won't be able to do it as much as I would want to. That said, if I can just leave the camera running without it frying the circuits when I disconnect the cable, I'd be perfectly willing to call the sound guy over to connect/re-jam between takes (well, not that much).

For back up I'll be feeding the mixed audio into one of the camera's mic inputs via wireless (much like Brian's suggestion) and also have a button mic on the other camera input for the "absolute worse case scenario." That said, I would MUCH rather just have the sound guy pop the TC lemo in routinely (every time we need to swap REDmags or something) and not have to worry about it so much.

 

[Sam Edwards]

Generally you can rejam every 4 hours or so and still be frame accurate.