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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DRAGON SENSOR yes or no... now or later

What about light field technology in the Dragon sensor as an additional inducement to upgrade? Didn't RED say they were working a version of this technology or something similar?
 
Curtis Stanton said:
What about light field technology in the Dragon sensor as an additional inducement to upgrade? Didn't RED say they were working a version of this technology or something similar?
Click to expand...

thats what we all want without even knowing...

Light field allows stereo from a single camera, superb 3D tracking etc. I think this is the next ground breaker for sure.
 
Dragon Sensor

Dragon Sensor

Hi Mark,

I think response to upgrade to DRAGON SENSOR will depend on type of lenses that are available at that time if the resolution goes upto 6K or 8K.
As we all know lot of lenses are becoming UNUSABLE even at 5K on EPIC...So with an 6K or an 8K upgrade no one will
like to make their investment on lenses go bad whether it is Cooke S4, Masterprimes,UP's or RPP's.

So I would expect an next version on RPP's from RED along with Dragon Sensor...or atleast RED should come out with list of lenses that will be covering the full DRAGON sensor because as a rental house if I know that these lenses will cover the DRAGON sensor then I will invest in those lenses....this is what is stopping me going into a lens purchase spree...

Harcharan
 
I don't for one second expect higher resolution or framerates from DRAGON. I'm expecting to see a couple of stops more DR and less noise. Anything beyond that would be a bonus.

Mark, been meaning to say this for the longest time: your avatar gives me the chuckles because it looks like you've just inserted your thumb up her bum.
 
Maxi Claudio said:
I'd say a 2012 CMOS technology will trump 2-3 year old MX CMOS..
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In low light performance Red needs to make much more than a 2-3 year leap. In that area MX is more like my 7 year old D2x than my 2-3 year old D3.

To be fair, of course, it's much better than either in a number of other ways...
 
Lee,


To be fair. We dont know what the MX is capapble of if it were "tuned" to capturing a single frame.

I am sure that capturing 24-96fps at 5K may have something to do with it.

When those "other" stills cameras can do that, then there is a discussion to be had.

But it's a really unfair comparrisoin.

David
 
Now I see everybody is going to demand brand new sensor upgrade from RED in 2012.

Can we now contribute in this sensor's wish list?

Hey, I would say not at all !!!!

Also it's not 100% sure for RED itself to get what they want right now otherwise we would get it already all of it !!!

As I was trying to describe in my post above that maybe everything is like always at the beginning more or less in hands of a manufacturer of semiconductor integrated circuits (ICs) on silicon wafers.

If they can't give you what you want than you should try to get another one that is also in most cases no so easy because your "architecture/ and firmware" is already based or "locked" to the existing one.

Right now I can't talk in details but maybe somebody could get an idea.

Speaking with the language of professional cinematographers it is about to get a sensor capable to give you a clean image shooting @ available light/low light conditions with aperture T4 or 5.6.

Whatever it means but super clean, almost without noise, super clean bottom of the sensor floor that has sensibility of ISO 16.500, even ISO 20.000 or even more ISO 52.000

+ I do not care about (potential clipping) light blowout til this feature doesn't shift existing colors, skin tones, etc, …you know what I mean…

If RED together with its sensor manufacture partners read this than we are very soon in the real future of revolutionary digital image acquisition…

…otherwise just in a boring sort of HD world (that is bread & butter for the most of you right now)…

Also I forgot to mention that everything what I've said here have to be done or made at minimum of 4K resolution and not 2K or HD that cameras I already owe or it will get delivered during January 2012.
 
I'd be cool with 20,000 ISO but I think there is an element to understanding for Canon having done still lenses and perfecting their algorithms to that extent that the 20,000 can (according to their marketing material) look very much like organic grain. I haven't seen it myself but thats what's said right?

If RED went that high up in the next upgrade, even shifted the sensor to a native ISO of say 1250 - 1600, that'd be cool...itd just mean the more you stop down the ISO the cleaner right? So our ISO 800, although clean now would be even cleaner then correct?

Personally I'm thinking this upgrade would lead to a mix of things, FF35 capable lenses, a potential FF35 or S35 6K cam... with higher ISO, if it can compete with Canon, I think we could probably say that Canon's 4K would be dead on arrival. No doubt when that 4K camera comes out they will be going on about the high potentially usable ISO much like with the C300.

Jannard did say they were going to eat every camera manufacturer for breakfast basically with dragon...at least thats what I got from the honey badger comment. The new lenses would need to go to FF35 perhaps a bit larger to accommodate their future sensor updates without needing to develop the lenses again and again to accommodate. So even if we don't see FF35 in the next update, I can imagine that it'd be the one after. The ISO will be higher as will the frame rates.

I'd go so far as to think that you'd get probably get a similar leap in the sensor as was with the MX sensor. So 6K 120fps and down, whilst the Scarlet would get 12fps 6K and say 24-48fps in 5K. I'm not sure though if all these upgrades would mean that we can keep the EPIC-X body forever with every upgrade...because surely there will be a point where we need to buy a new camera body right? When the sensor gets too big I assume? I mean you won't be able to fit that 26K sensor into the EPIC-X/M body surely... though Dragon will be an EPIC leap no doubt. Hopefully more than M to MX but I'll be pleased either way no matter what they come out with because it will be an improvement no matter what.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Is it correct that the Dragon upgrade won't be for the Scarlet as the data power won't be enough by hardware limitation?


Pat
Click to expand...

Pat,

the whole Scarlet hardware will be exchanged with the next upgrade and also due to lower Scarelt price tag

it could be that faster frame rates, faster data flow or similar in a way will be just turned off or simply disabled ...!!!???

Advertising slogan could be:

You don't buy a new camera but you get the upgrade

that offer you the same set of features as you would buy a new one

and just for a fraction of that price.

Maybe somebody can do it better with the language,

But now anyway you've got an idea.
 
Imran Farouk said:
Does that mean after Dragon we can look forward to the Honey Badger upgrade? :tongue:
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Jim, when can we see Honey Badger T-shirts in Red Store, please?
 
Graeme Nattress said:
But Sony F65 isn't an 8k sensor. It's pixel count is about enough for about 5.6k, but rather too few for 8k....
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Thank you, I stand corrected, didn't knew that. Also I guess reading too much of a f65 promotion materials messed with my mind, still seems like a cool thing after all. Actually I'd like to see some movies shot with F65 in upcoming years as well as highly anticipated films shot on Epic . I agree, several years later in the future motion pictures shot at 8K and finished in 4K will look awesome on 4K screens (I hope 4K projectors will be installed everywhere by that time, preferably R3D laser ones :). Future looks bright in that very area.
 
Vadim, yup it's cool. Finally we're getting less flak about thinking resolution is an important factor. Unfortunately Sony being Sony have to go on their marketing thing, but they're doing the right thing by saying resolution is important.

Graeme
 
When I talk about this with my industry friends they all have this "what would we need so much size and rez for "attitude. Similar to some thoughts in this forum.
I kind of think we are missing a point about creativity in that thinking of screens and movies etc as it is today and as it has been in the past. The dragons larger sensor will allow us to crop a lot more obviously. But I look forward to the ability to create or use it for stills and other type of moving images media. Not just a horizontal same as always in the theater look. I know we all are very fond of IMAX and that format, but imagine if some of the great film makers of the past had this camera? It would be like Michael Angelo having a new brush technology. I dare say he would paint a different Sistine Chapel picture if he did. Not just a higher rez painting.

Maybe we will have a sensor one day big enough to capture both images of 3D on the same sensor and then only deal with one file for both images. mmmmmmmm:emote_happyhappy:
Think out of the box... the 16x9 box or 2.what ever
 
All I want for Dragon is class leading low light, dynamic range and currently available high frame rates at all resolutions. A bit more resolution is welcome, but 5K 160fps with 14 or 15 stops native dynamic range and class leading low light would obliterate the market. ("obliterate" sounds Epic)
 
Of course we allways want more.
But to me, some of the fun is in actually lighting a scene....

I don't doubt that I'll "need" the dragon and eventually the monstro when they come out.
OTOH, that is the exact philosophy I bought out of when getting the R1 (lasted me for allmost 4 years un modded) and now the Epic.

I'll need it when I need it, but for now I'll just enjoy wat I have, and try to figure out a way to build in NDs... :)
More tolerance in the top is of higher relevance than better lowlight capacity right now or me...

Cheers!
 
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