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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

THE GREATEST CAMERA EVER!!!!!

David Battistella said:
Mark,

Have you posted any EPIC stuff yet? I've been away for a while? What would the DR be like on an EPIC if it was the camera on the car tunnel shot?

Wasn't all of this stuff shot on your RED MX?

David
Click to expand...

David,
DR is the same as the REDONE MX... as far as I can see. BUT!!! were it stakes up and looks way cleaner is because its 5k. You are shooting 30% more information than the 4k MX..
The best thing of all is shooting 5k 100fps.. clean and beautiful...
As per the tunnel shot.... no difference.. actually if we turn on the HDR fuction. it would be much better :)
 
Choice

Choice

Adam,

Thank you for your kind offer but I have a Red Rocket card and convert my own footage where possible. This goes some way to help the tech illiterate and the Luddites. Transcoding myself is not always an option as some editors resent the "camera dept" being involved and with the last big job I was 2 thousand miles away in a jungle.

I don't believe the ProRes route is "madness" and I have seen alot of beautiful work done by talented people using the Alexa. I prefer the RAW myself but it is only to our advantage to have a choice. I rather record to ProRes than deal with fuckedup transcodes. If the ProRes module was built by Red I'm certain you could dual record and post would have great looking rushes done for them that would also perfectly match back to the R3D's.
 
The simple fact is, ALEXA shoots PRO RES. thats it. Thats the only reason people use that camera. (and the name)

I've shot MX, EPIC ALEXA side by side, I could not see for the life of me 14stops range in a PRO RES file coming from the the ALEXA, Nore could I see 13.5 stops coming from a transcoded PRO RES file from RED....
If one person says that the ALEXA has more dynamic range than the EPIC or REDONE is a complete and utter liar! As far as I can see, not one is better than the other (in PRO RES MODE)

But I sure as hell can get all that information from my RAW RED FILES.... all day every day. in Real time!

Questions :
How many post house or edit houses have a RED ROCKET CARD in there facilities.... Every single one I go to hasn't.

How many people in those post houses or edit houses actually know how to make super clean REDLOGFILM - PRO RES or AVID files from the R3D's... nobody i know in all the post houses I go to.

how many post houses push out DPX's to grade with instead of the original R3D files.... Every single one I go to does...

How many people do you know that actually spend the time doing post R&D, to learn new work flows for both cameras and actually really know what they are talking about....
I've personally met about 5 out of countless hundreds...

How many people post 4k..... not many.

This is why ARRI ALEXA works for the average joe! and this is why RED need to address this fact and get that PRO RES module out quick. Just for those people that want FAST and easy.

I'm sticking with RAW and sticking with my in house post methods, I'm saving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and that goes straight into my pocket!
Plus my investment in RED is way less than if I was an ARRI user...

I just cant loose doing it my way.
 
Well this week is SMPTE show week guys at Darling Harbour, and I am moving a shoot just so I can attend. I am sure there will be a few opinions in the room!
I am meeting Mike Seymour tomorrow to discuss the EPIC with Steadicam and various ways of setting it up, just to get a few more people on the "Right path". It can only benefit all of us if more people understand the system and workflow.

But there still are very experienced and well respected DP's in Australia that think I have wasted my money on RED and EPIC, andthey just don't get it.
The RED system is the best system in the world in my opinion, i didn't get really excited till the MX came out and the bugs were ironed out buthHey I had a lot of problems
with XDCAM HD disc system when it first came out as well.

Being a steadicam guy.. Well my style is so much better now, due to the fact I am flying about half the weight now so I am not getting strained within a shot and I am quicker to recover
between takes, so I am shooting more and getting better shots.

Ill share my thoughts on SMPTE in a separate post this week.. But for people who don't know what SMPTE is.. Its like a tiny version of NAB but in Sydney Australia every second year.
 
Mark,

There was talk of an H.264 module but I have not heard much about that at all.

I think there are codec licensing issues as well. I'm not sure if Arri has an exclusive deal with Aplle or if Red wants to pay a huge licensing fee to apple for the use of the PR 4444 codec. Then, the philosophical question arises, did we build a 5k camera so people could shoot 1080 easily?

I'd say that it would be best to use KiPro ir KiPro Mini to record an HDSDI out of the Epic to PR 422 files for editorial and then a matchback (assuming all the TC is embeded.

The 4444 deal worth it for ARRI as it's 1920x1080 recording log c 4444 on board, but this us completely opposite the RED philosophy. H.264 module poses the same problems for post as DSLR footage does and needs to be transcoded to work in editorial anyway. (I KNOW A BUNCH OF PREMIERE GUYS ARE GOING TO SAY IT's real time but h.264 is not meant for editing.

I think that RED should stay with the FILM style workflow as it appeals to professionals (like you and me) who are very interested in preserving image quality into the future as well. I think the real potential for EPIC is to create EDIT ready material that can be streamed and captured on set to what ever the working codec needs to be for editorial. On the fly digital dailies that can be screened by clients and recorded for playback or editorial.

To me, I'd like to see them develope that kind of forward thinking idea before an onboard module, but I totally hear you when it comes to laziness.

I also think people take that whiney, "it's hard, I have to copy it then transcode it, the edit, then go back. blah, blah blah. attitude and make it hard for nothing.

It's smart, it's easy, and its the best quality imagery you can get. PERIOD.

I'm still shocked that after all this time it's still an uphill battle in some camps.

We do what we can to help people understand the ease of the smartest, logical, well thought out digital cinema aquisition out there.

David
 
Your possibly correct. :)

I dont really care to be honest, I don't have any issues with work flows. I like making my own PRO RES files. I then get them perfectly balance in every way. Grading then becomes a very very very simple process. If I get into strife with latitude or colour, i just hop back into my RAW file and suck out everything i need. easy as taking a wizz

I'm only worried about RED. Having a camera that spits out files that suites everyones needs seems far more profitable to me... 5kRAW (for me) , 2kPRO RES or HD Avid files for the people that want to just spit out quick tv shows, tv ad's etc...
Hit the whole market I say, Not just the RAW nutters like me.

Anyway... Not really an issue for me, I'm more than happy with the camera, this is a RED profit margin problem...
hey!!! but then again, RED are backordered for years! do they really care :)
 
I hear ya.

It's not a problem on this end either.
People are doing to make choices based on a lot of factors.
Pro RES with a RAW backup is a very powerful way to work.

David
 
i am not even sure, a prores module would be a good idea. fcpx sucks big time in a multi department post worklfow. i vote for DNxHD.
as a alexa owner i would be really pissed that fpcx sucks big time in multi department workflows. i know of a lot of guys (inlcuding me) switching to avid/adobe just to leave fcp7 because its EOL`ed .
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
i am not even sure, a prores module would be a good idea. fcpx sucks big time in a multi department post worklfow. i vote for DNxHD.
as a alexa owner i would be really pissed that fpcx sucks big time in multi department workflows. i know of a lot of guys (inlcuding me) switching to avid/adobe just to leave fcp7 because its EOL`ed .
Click to expand...

What we are saying Cüneyt is that RED need to make a module that makes both DNxHD and PRO RES, you select the one you want. Just so people like you can work fast without the need of transcoding.

Us RAW guys are fine :)


David Battistella said:
I hear ya.

It's not a problem on this end either.
People are doing to make choices based on a lot of factors.
Pro RES with a RAW backup is a very powerful way to work.

David
Click to expand...

"Pro RES with a RAW backup is a very powerful way to work."

AMEN to that !!!!!!
 
oh man, i did misread the stuff...hehe.
yes double recording, one offline codec and the raw files for colorgrading. total agreement here.
 
I think we are getting very close to this vision.

Set very good base looks in camera.
One for the client monitoring path.
One for the post/editorial files.

No transcoding.
Edit the "on the fly dalies"
Finish with matchback to R3D.

Just loose the tinker step with the RR transcoding all the dailies and use the RR to hook into RT when finshing, have the RR as a backup when you need fast transcodes, but try to create as much as possible when the record button is pressed.

I think the EPIC addresses most if not all of this via streaming or modules.

David
 
Killer stuff Mark. Always great to see your latest work.
Here my 2 cents.
Yes REDlog film to prores is key. Arri is on that train and wins DPs, producers and directors over by the hundreds. But Jim and the gang know that the next generation Mac Pros will be so fast in handling R3D natively that you don't need to transcode your RED footage anymore. You can use Premiere Pro right now and edit with you R3Ds out of the box.
So no more doubling the diskspace by transcoding to Prores and such. PP is working hard with Davinci Resolve to make the EDL/MXL trip an easy quick thing.

Apple will get their act together soon and will support R3Ds directly on the timeline and fix the rest of the mess.

So the all RAW workflow is pretty much here and will only get faster and faster.
So till RED brings out their Prores Modul the market could have changed already. Simply because of Software and CPU Power.

My Mac Pro is almost 4 years old and I edit R3Ds in realtime on my PP setup. The new Towers are right around the corner. Now think about what I can do with the new ones fully pimped. Prores what?

Jim is right, he always is (almost). Hi looks a few years ahead and knows that the all RAW workflow is already here. So why bother with the damn modules.
Jarred also said that they don't use FCP anymore because PP is so much better with REDfiles.

So the Prores problem could be solved faster than you all think.

Tim
 
Tim,

I think you make very valid points. RED was created with the future in mind. Premiere is doing the RT timeline thing now with the Mercury engine, but both AVID and FCP X are moving toward "one codec" mentality.

I really think that in that "codec war" APPLE has an upper hand. That means PRORES in and out is "the easy way" Just when PREMIERE and the next AVID promise more "native support" FCP is moving toward one codec for all. That will be interesting to watch for sure.

I don't think we can write off Apple just yet. (I'll wait at least a year and keep running the FCP 7 workflow I have in place before I do that) because how FCP X gets adopted in the LONG TERM will have a huge effect on everything.

Premiere R3D editing is limited at best. Plus, it means I have to use premiere. (like asking my barber to use hedgeclippers).

Interesting times for sure.


PS: If this was addressed soley at Mark I'm sorry if I jumped in to quickly.

David
 
Good points David

I also don't write off Apple. I think computers and softwares will become so powerful in the next few months (all 64bit now) that we will see big changes in the NLE market. Davinci is one big evidence in that direction.
Real Multiformat timelines (Video and Audio) will make workflows easier. Like PP, just throw your shit on it and it will play it. The new FCP-X is actually the same but we have to wait for some more codecs.

Interesting times, really.

Tim
 
Resolve 8 was showing off FCP 7 XML in and out. I wonder if that will ever happen with FCP-X. Out of the box, the image quality and the cc tools are very powerful. No one will ever match davinci's tracker though. No number of keyframed can accomplish things that quickly.

I'm still not sure what the limitations to the live debater of the wavelet compression scheme in the actual r3d file itself is. A rocket might always be required to handle that processing.

I await the day where I'm just editing R3D and storing two copies in case of emergency.

David
 
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