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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Significant Update...

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The mount question just got a lot more tricky I think. At $500 there was no choice to be made; I would have had the PL (since I have PL glass and occasionally would want to shoot it on EPIC), and I would have the Nikon the second it was ready (since I plan on shooting on high end Nikon glass for 90% of the time with EPIC).

But $2000... ouch! I hear ya, it's titanium, it's relatively small volume, you obviously have a lot of R&D to recoup on these electronic mounts, but still... I'll shamelessly plagiarise a previous poster who talked about the side handle, and allude to the fact that RED now charge more for a mount that Nikon do for a mount with a pretty decent DSLR attached...!

It is what it is. If the Nikon was available at X launch and was an no-charge (or small charge) substitution for PL, it would be an easy decision; go Nikon, maybe get a PL later if I decide I really want to use it. But unfortunately the situation is the opposite and as Jarred stated you might end up owning an EPIC with no mount for some time.

Jarred, I think I asked this before and didn't get a clear answer: is there any engineering or production reason you couldn't ship the Nikon (or indeed Canon) electronic mounts as non-functional dumb mounts at or shortly after EPIC-X release, and enable the electronic functionality later with software updates when that's ready? Or is there still a fair amount of hardware development & production planning/sourcing needed on the physical mounts themselves?

This is obviously an issue for a significant number of people judging from the responses on this thread, and I think you should give the above serious consideration to see if you could make it work. I (and I suspect others) would be totally understanding and accepting of half-finished or beta hardware/firmware/software, so long as it enabled us to physically stick Canon & Nikon lenses on our EPICs!

But don't do it this weekend; get some bloody rest man!

Mike
 
Jarred Land said:
To address the mount questions....

We can't commit to a trade in program yet.. we have to wait for the mounts to be complete and into pre-production before we can assess the cost relationship between the packages and make sure it is something that is viable to offer for no charge or a small up charge fee.

Regardless of the cost.. the Canon and Nikon Mount will not be ready by the time the Epic-X program begins, so unless people want to take delivery without a mount the PL will be the only choice for a short time when we start shipping.

And yes we are exploring a dumb Nikon Mount.
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Thanks Jarred. Good to know where that part of the program stands.
 
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I applaud Jarred for even addressing the mount issue. I can't imaging that at this point RDC can think about making a decision on mount swaps. As for the price. Yes, I can understand why it's expensive, it not made by Canon for millions of cameras, it's made by RED for a very special camera, that is produced in relatively small volumes. I am surprised that the mounts are roughly the same price. I would expect the Canon to be more. Good for Gibby to bend RED's ear and thanks to RED for listening and addressing it, but I wouldn't expect an immediate answer.
 
Stills lenses are designed to resolve 20+ megapixels on cameras such as canon 5d, d3s,x and 16-18mp on dx which is similar to s35. Lenses such as nikon 14-24, 24 f1.4 and any high end modern stills lens will have the resolving power and more than needed on the Epic. Its the mechanics, large focus gears and culminated marks and other things such as breathing ac's and dp's look for in cine lenses than just resolution.

Andrew M. said:
PL mount is something that one needs to have together with Canon mount in most cases, unless you have multiple RED cameras.

The question is how easy is to flip the PL to Canon or vice versa?

When you run out of resolving power on your lenses and only MPs will do, you will rent MPs more often that you think, believe me.
Don’t forget we are dealing with 5K camera here and once you need this sharp, full of details, wide angle shot, well you are going to rent MPs
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Andrew M. said:
Don’t forget we are dealing with 5K camera here and once you need this sharp, full of details, wide angle shot, well you are going to rent MPs
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Am not. :)
 
Thanks for that reply and insight Jarred...much appreciated. As you know, I've been involved with Red since even before the company was even formed, and one of the key things that convinced me to jump onto the Red bandwagon in 2005 was Jim's and later on also Red Team's ability to listen to their customers about what's needed in real world production out in the field. Your response is one more indication of Red listening to what the various groups of Red's customers really want and need.

Hopefully it will work out that those who don't want/need a PL mount will be able to select a Canon or Nikon mount, even if that involves a nominal changeout fee to do so. If so, I'm at the front of the line for a couple Stage 2 Epic X, and even if the other mounts aren't quite ready when my cameras are ready I may take delivery of them without mounts - at least one of them, then put the Canon mount on the mountless camera when its ready.
 
Andrew M. said:
When you run out of resolving power on your lenses and only MPs will do, you will rent MPs more often that you think, believe me.
Don’t forget we are dealing with 5K camera here and once you need this sharp, full of details, wide angle shot, well you are going to rent MPs
Click to expand...

I'm with Elsie; I'll see your MPs and raise you my Nikon 14-24; it doesn't run out of resolution on a 6K D3X so I guess it'll muddle through on an EPIC :-)

It really is the most gorgeous bit of ultra-wide glass I've ever used, seriously. And for what it costs you might just be able to afford to buy a decent *box* for the MPs...

Mike
 
I imagine that not only is there an electronics addition over PL but you guys also have a lot of time/money into characterizing the lenses for Auto-focus etc. Epic also would need firmware written to handle the Canon data. I assume that's wrapped into the mount cost as opposed to the camera cost to be fair to PL customers.
 
Ariel Weiss said:
Its the mechanics, large focus gears and culminated marks and other things such as breathing ac's and dp's look for in cine lenses than just resolution.
Click to expand...

Remember, these new cameras are DSMC cameras - digital stills and motion cameras. Stills shooters don't use DP's or AC's, and they aren't part of the crew composition for the vast majority of hybrid style and EFP style crews. Stills shooters (myself included) frequently use auto focus with our DSLR cameras, plus when we manually focus we're obviously very used to the mechanics and short focus throw of 35mm still lenses. Huge numbers of hybrid and mobile EFP shooters with Red One have been using 35mm still lenses exclusively for years now - myself included. We hand focus those 35mm still lenses routinely ourselves by eye (no AC).

Fast forward now to Epic and Scarlet. The cine style industry is just one of the markets for Epic and Scarlet - the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg underwater is the giant combined stills, hybrid, and EFP industry - far and away Red's largest potential sales market for Epic and Scarlet in terms of probable sales volume. The cine industry gets a lot of attention and press - but Red's real sales "bread & butter" will be to stills, hybrid, and EFP professionals. With Epic's ability to use the full electronic features of 35mm still lenses (AF, etc.) Red will sell tons of Canon, Nikon, and Red electronic mounts, thus increasing their economies of scale - IMO way more sales than PL mounts.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I imagine that not only is there an electronics addition over PL but you guys also have a lot of time/money into characterizing the lenses for Auto-focus etc. Epic also would need firmware written to handle the Canon data. I assume that's wrapped into the mount cost as opposed to the camera cost to be fair to PL customers.
Click to expand...

Whoa there; I'll call you on that 'fair' comment. Support for other mounts is part of the capabilities of the camera, whether you chose to use it or not. Just like 3D; I can't imagine I'll ever put my EPIC in a 3D rig, but I have no problem accepting the fact that having that capability and the firmware features to support it is part of the camera and part of the price. 'Stills mode' must have cost a fair bit to develop; do you feel it's 'fair' that people who only shoot motion pictures should have to bear some of the cost of developing that too? Or should RED lower the price of the basic camera and charge extra to enable such features?

If we start arguing about which features of the camera it's 'fair' for customers to have to pay for, even if they don't expect to use them, we'll be here until next Shrove Tuesday at the very least - to absolutely no purpose whatever!

Mike
 
I'll take PL now, and have time to do a few jobs before the Nikon mount is ready.

I'm looking forward to field swapping the mounts, as needed.

Gather those parts, I'm ready when you are!
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
Jarred, I think I asked this before and didn't get a clear answer: is there any engineering or production reason you couldn't ship the Nikon (or indeed Canon) electronic mounts as non-functional dumb mounts at or shortly after EPIC-X release, and enable the electronic functionality later with software updates when that's ready? Or is there still a fair amount of hardware development & production planning/sourcing needed on the physical mounts themselves?
Click to expand...


Canon Mounts no problem.. we will ship them with just iris support if needed after all parts come in. Characterizing lenses takes a very long time, we won't wait on that to be complete before we ship.

Nikon mounts have a motor in the mount.. so that is a little more complicated... there is testing that goes on that is more hardware oriented and dependent. That is why we may offer a completely separate dumb mount for Nikon.
 
Jarred Land said:
...Nikon mounts have a motor in the mount.. so that is a little more complicated... there is testing that goes on that is more hardware oriented and dependent. That is why we may offer a completely separate dumb mount for Nikon....
Click to expand...

Hmmm....was thinking to go with Nikon zooms...but might be simpler process to go Canon.
 
Jarred Land said:
Depends on demand, RED OWNERS get priority for delivery for the stages. The one exception to that is EPIC-M program, Non-RED owners can purchase an EPIC-M immediately.
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I'm most certain demand is pretty high. Now just to clarify - are you saying that non-RED ONE owners might not have the chance to place an order before the end of the year and profit from the old prices or do you mean that it's uncertain to have an EPIC in your hands before the end of the year?
 
Hi Gibby,
I'm with you on this, I shoot Nikon almost exclusively and very happy with them. You can see the title below my showreel. I was just referring to the notion that was mentioned of stills lenses not resolve the 5k Epic which is not true I believe.
http://www.vimeo.com/14522421

Steve Gibby said:
Remember, these new cameras are DSMC cameras - digital stills and motion cameras. Stills shooters don't use DP's or AC's, and they aren't part of the crew composition for the vast majority of hybrid style and EFP style crews. Stills shooters (myself included) frequently use auto focus with our DSLR cameras, plus when we manually focus we're obviously very used to the mechanics and short focus throw of 35mm still lenses. Huge numbers of hybrid and mobile EFP shooters with Red One have been using 35mm still lenses exclusively for years now - myself included. We hand focus those 35mm still lenses routinely ourselves by eye (no AC).

Fast forward now to Epic and Scarlet. The cine style industry is just one of the markets for Epic and Scarlet - the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg underwater is the giant combined stills, hybrid, and EFP industry - far and away Red's largest potential sales market for Epic and Scarlet in terms of probable sales volume. The cine industry gets a lot of attention and press - but Red's real sales "bread & butter" will be to stills, hybrid, and EFP professionals. With Epic's ability to use the full electronic features of 35mm still lenses (AF, etc.) Red will sell tons of Canon, Nikon, and Red electronic mounts, thus increasing their economies of scale - IMO way more sales than PL mounts.
Click to expand...
 
Jarred Land said:
Canon Mounts no problem.. we will ship them with just iris support if needed after all parts come in. Characterizing lenses takes a very long time, we won't wait on that to be complete before we ship.

Nikon mounts have a motor in the mount.. so that is a little more complicated... there is testing that goes on that is more hardware oriented and dependent. That is why we may offer a completely separate dumb mount for Nikon.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the fast and clear answer Jarred, it's much appreciated.

If the full electronic Nikon mount is going to be substantially delayed (which it pretty much must be for you to even consider going to the effort of offering an interim totally dumb mount of different design) but the electronic Canon mount will ship in some form with Stage 3, that might just tempt me to swallow my pride and switch to Canon glass (I swore I'd never buy another Canon product after they royally screwed those of us who had FD glass when they designed the EF mount!).

Thanks again.

Mike
 
Jarred Land said:
That is why we may offer a completely separate dumb mount for Nikon.
Click to expand...

A dumb Nikon mount - in addition to the PL - would be perfect for me. I regularly change the mounts on my Red One, it takes less than 5 minutes in the studio and with the proper torque drivers the original screws are still perfect.

I would not need an electronic mount as all my Nikon lenses are manual.

John
 
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