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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Does Avid Media Composer 5 utilize the Red Rocket ?

Michael Totten

Michael Totten

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I'm looking at moving to Avid (after FCP X unveiling)... but I know very little of Avid.
Is the software 64 bit ? I'd like to do as little rendering or transcoding as possible.
How is it with Red / R3D files ?
 
Michael Totten said:
I'm looking at moving to Avid (after FCP X unveiling)... but I know very little of Avid.
Is the software 64 bit ? I'd like to do as little rendering or transcoding as possible.
How is it with Red / R3D files ?
Click to expand...

I am just diving in Avid MC 5.5 also.
It is 64 bit on windows only, on Mac 32bit.
For red files you could "link to AMA " whiteout transcoding edit the raw files (or at least i thought).

File -> link to AMA volume
or
File -> link to AMA File(s)
 
Media Composer v5.5.x will be the last 32bit version, but it will run under 64bit OS. There is native R3D editing via AMA. Be sure to download the R3D AMA plug-in and install it beforehand: http://www.avid.com/US/products/Avid-Media-Access

Media Composer does support the RED ROCKET card for transcode/rendering but you need to ensure you are using the correct rocket card driver. See the READ ME for details.

Michael
 
For edit R3D files in MC 5 or 5.5 u need 2 xeon 2.6 12 core machine with red rocket card/Nvidia Quadro 3800 or above to work smoothly. Big sequence slow down the performance.
 
You can't EDIT in MC with the Rocket card (well, you can edit, but during edit/playback, the card is not being used). You can only use the Rocket card for transcoding.
 
People please, there's a few false information here. If you don't know the facts don't say anything, it's just gonna make it worse for the ones who want to know.

Avid is not yet 64 bit, the next update will be all 64 bit, presumably for both mac and windows. You can edit R3D files directly, though you need a very fast computer (a lot of processing power) to be able to.
But it's still working and it has a feature set of settings where you can individually change the RAW files like in a RedCine-X (not all features but enough).
I have yet to see the same developed linking to R3D in other NLE's.


FCP went to be more about transcoding to ProRes, so there's still gonna be transcoding. I think transcoding is a bit misunderstood. It's not that you have to do it, but the workflow and creative work will be much smoother, whatever NLE you are using. FCP uses ProRes and Avid uses DNxHD, both are essentially equally good codecs and I recommend you doing a transcode before editing.
Of course it depends on the project, but if it's a larger project I would never go by the original R3D files. DNxHD has four main quality settings in different resolutions. Their names are based on their bit rate.
At 25p it's for 1080p; DNxHD 36, DNxHD 120, DNxHD 185 and DNxHD 185x. The 185x setting stands for 10-bit and it's very fast to be such a high quality codec. It's mastering quality for most projects.
THen there's a lot of other formats that works native within MC, all those are listed on their website. Like HDCAM SR which works in it's native format. There's also an Avid 1:1 uncompressed codec which is just as it sounds, uncompressed.

Avid is also a less mouse driven editing software, although they made it easier for those used to it by creating the Smart Tools feature at the 5.0 release. Still, if you want to be lightning fast you need to check out the keyboard and what is where. I would recommend you to map your own keys to how you want them.

It's going to mess with your head when you start out, but I promise, I hated Avid the first time I used it. I really wanted to through it out the window, but give it some time, the more you learn, the more you are gonna love it, I promise.


Tarsem Antil said:
Big sequence slow down the performance.
Click to expand...

False, I edited a feature film in one big timeline the whole time, never slowed down... and I had hundreds if not thousands of temporary effects on it as well. All on a laptop, wasn't any slower or faster then a sequence of two clips. Only thing is that it's a mess if you don't organize your timeline... although that's more in the way of personal taste of chaos versus order.
 
Christoffer, some great points here. Any recommendations, sites, books, videos for those learning MC 5.5?
 
The amount of tracks and the length of the sequence DO contribute to the 'weight' of a sequence. Most notable on not so powerful systems. You can use the 'Playlength' command to lessen the burden on the system. Has nothing to do specifcally with R3D or AMA, IMHO.
 
I can't decide; Avid or Adobe ?
I actually do very little editing and when I do it's with a relatively small amount of footage and the TRT is always under 10 minutes (usually under five minutes).
So I know (for my needs in terms of editing) both Avid and Adobe will be just fine.

It's more about the speed, transcoding (or lack of) and effects that I apply without having to render. I use Sapphire Effects and Twixtor often... in the old final cut studio it was just horrible.
If I applied a Sapphire plugin I would have to render, if I moved a clip after applying the affect I had to render.
I know there's going to be a certain amount of rendering no matter what... but I will most likely go with the program that saves me the most time. I like to be able to apply an effect and see the results right away so that I can decide whether or not it's working and then move on to another shot.

Can anyone comment on which program handles effects better (speed is my main concern).
I would assume Adobe CS5.5 would be faster as it's a 64-bit program... with a Quadro 4000 I imagine CS5 would chew thorough effects filters.
What about Avid?

thanks for all the great information.
Michael
 
I think that Avid is best for a robust system. I've been hit by a lot of media management problems in CS5, but because you say you don't handle a lot of material you might be better off with CS5.5.
I think that Avid is faster on a lesser system, not at AMA (direct link to the original files) but when transcoded to DNxHD (exactly like when transcoding to ProRes), but CS5.5 is more open and direct across the different formats out there. You might need bit more horsepower, but I think your choice would be CS5.5. And with a Quadro 4000 and cuda it will be awesome for you!

As always, don't choose a hammer if you are going to use screws. Use the software best fit for the work you do. In my opinion, based on what you said, I would say CS5.5, even if I'm a hardcore Avid user. CS5.5 might be the right software for you.
 
My 2c RE the advantages of Avid (since you asked for that specific perspective)...

Michael Totten said:
It's more about the speed, transcoding (or lack of) and effects that I apply without having to render. I use Sapphire Effects and Twixtor often... in the old final cut studio it was just horrible.
If I applied a Sapphire plugin I would have to render, if I moved a clip after applying the affect I had to render.
Click to expand...

Avid + Sapphire: it's a time-tested combination. Stable, robust and fast.

Avid + renders: Avid forgets renders way less than FCP. Everything is basically an adjustment layer (it adjusts the layer below it). So if you can have a stack of crazy stuff and you change something on V5... it can still use the renders for V1-V4. A tweak on V5 is quick to re-render.

Avid + redrocket / transcode: My 2c would be to just transcode everything to DNxHD (like ProRes) quickly using RedRocket. Then everything goes really quickly and responsively when you're editing. I don't think there is a faster editing option in the world than Avid + DNxHD. The drawback is you have to be prepared to transcode.

Avid + twixtor: Avid's time remapping has Twixtor-like morphing built in (it's called FluidMotion) - generally we have Twixtor installed but don't use it for 90% of shot re-times. For special cases though, we go into After Effects and really finesse it with Twixtor, yes.

I like to do the transcode in DaVinci - so I have beautiful DNxHD files and just cut and do effects on top of that. But RedCineX works too.

Maybe I'm oldschool and should be using AMA (directly loading R3Ds, like Premire) more... but DNxHD works for me and it's fast. Also I don't really like RED color out of the box, so always want to do secondaries.

I'll take a look at moving more to AMA when I upgrade my computer and they release the 64-bit version of Media Composer 6 (it says 4th Q 2011 in Wikipedia).

Michael Totten said:
I know there's going to be a certain amount of rendering no matter what... but I will most likely go with the program that saves me the most time. I like to be able to apply an effect and see the results right away so that I can decide whether or not it's working and then move on to another shot.

Can anyone comment on which program handles effects better (speed is my main concern).
I would assume Adobe CS5.5 would be faster as it's a 64-bit program... with a Quadro 4000 I imagine CS5 would chew thorough effects filters.
Click to expand...

For CS5.5 - depends on the effect filter. Some are GPU accelerated, others are not. Also, do you want video output through a Blackmagic or AJA card? I have hit slowdowns with Premiere - GPU stuff works well... but when you want video out it is not so good. Because it has to get the stuff off of the GPU then into main memory then to the video output card.

The other thing with Premiere is: what the hell codec do you actually render to, when you do have to render? Rendering to DNxHD or ProRes is a bit of a hack... if Adobe had their own DNxHD / ProRes equivalent that'd be a huge plus. Why did they not buy Cineform and incorporate it?

Again, download the trial and just try the two?

I suspect you'll go with Premiere because it's so damn easy to get into. Plus you can go into After Effects easily.

But Avid has some nice advantages and really sings with Sapphire & lots of effects because DNxHD renders work very well. Plus you have stuff like being able to actually paint soft mattes, blurs, etc with the AniMatte tool - the interface is from the 90s but the power is still not matched by Premiere.

I'm interested in which one you'll pick? Keep us updated!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
The other thing with Premiere is: what the hell codec do you actually render to, when you do have to render? Rendering to DNxHD or ProRes is a bit of a hack... if Adobe had their own DNxHD / ProRes equivalent that'd be a huge plus. Why did they not buy Cineform and incorporate it?
Click to expand...

Yes, forgot about that, it's quite annoying.

Good thing about DNxHD is that it's open, you can use it in other NLE's. ProRes is more closed, even though you can play it really well with AMA in Avid (I played 4444 files from the Arri Alexa without any problems on my laptop using AMA).
 
Yes, I forgot to mention I absolutely do need to view via an HD-SDI out. Currently I've got a Kona card but will probably go with a Decklink as I'm moving to Davinci Resolve. Will Adobe Premiere work with Kona or Decklink or do you need to view via the Nvidia card?
If Adobe has the "mercury playback engine" via Nvidia card and 64 bit then what is Avids equivalent (nitris) ?
 
HD-SDI out with Media Composer is available when combined with the Aja Io Express, Avid Mojo DX or Avid Nitris DX. Here's a doc on the differences between the boxes.
 
Michael Totten said:
Yes, I forgot to mention I absolutely do need to view via an HD-SDI out. Currently I've got a Kona card but will probably go with a Decklink as I'm moving to Davinci Resolve. Will Adobe Premiere work with Kona or Decklink or do you need to view via the Nvidia card?
If Adobe has the "mercury playback engine" via Nvidia card and 64 bit then what is Avids equivalent (nitris) ?
Click to expand...

Well, Adobe doesn't really mention the fact that Mercury Playback really slows down when you try to pipe the output through an AJA or Blackmagic card. I guess they can get away with it since nobody expects Adobe to do things by the book anyway?

Maybe I just had bad luck while testing but I saw many similar threads...

Avid is working on their own 64-bit rewrite now (release Q4 this year, I think) - and I expect that they'll offer good playback while offering video output and likely AJA Kona and/or Blackmagic support.

At the moment, yeah, Avid's video I/O is via (in order of increasing utility):
- DVI Preview
- Matrox MXO
- AJA IO Express
- Avid Mojo DX
- Avid Nitris DS (the fastest) EDIT: No, wait, DX. Nitris DX.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Job ter Burg said:
You mean Nitris DX. Nitris DS was a different beast, namely Avid DS with a 'classic' (non-DX) Nitris box.
Nitris DX works with Media Composer, the classic Nitris only worked with Symphony and DS.
Click to expand...

HAHAHA! Yes. Edited. Thanks!

Dude, Avid's naming system is the worst part about their products.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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