Epic underwater housings

[Peter Nevedal]

Hello All,
I know about one company here, we are working with them some times on some special things. I asked them to make underwater for Epic and Alexa. They will make it. The only problem is, we dont have Epic here. /have only RED ONES now/
Alexa we will have in 2 weeks i think, so they started to do underwater housing for Alexa quickly. We are in Stage 2 for Epic's, so we have to wait till may/june,
When i received my first Epic, they will do underwater for Epic too.
We are in speaking together, that it will be for selling too. Not only for me/us/, but like normal product for selling for everybody.
So i think for Alexa in June, and for Epic July / august.
PM me if you are interested.

Peter
www.filmpark.sk

 

[Pawel Achtel]

...The main problem is that any add-on optic needs to be centered on the optical axis so even an Ivanoff or fathom style port will have similar issues.

Stunning macro 3d and relatively low res wide angle underwater is likely to be the situation for awhile....

Michael, I agree.

What I was trying to hint at is that I'm working on an underwater optical system that does not use dome (or flat port) and it will facilitate underwater 3D wide angle images with resolution exceeding 4k edge-to-edge and therefore greatly exceeding what is currently possible when using dome ports, let alone flat ports. My system has no filed curvature (corner and centre focus at different distances), no distortion (usually barrel), no measurable CA (usually less than 200 lines per picture height on the edge), no magnification and can focus just a few inches in front of the lens.

What I'm amazed at is that even companies experienced in underwater imaging, offer "state-of-the-art" expensive setups that, in fact, are bound to failure and disappointment when filming anything except macro subjects.

There seems to be a lot of hype surrounding the Deep Atom 3D rig. But, the only question I would be asking is: what edge resolution can I obtain using this sytem with, say, 14mm or 12mm lens?

From my experience, doing CA correction of a dome or flat port in post still produces very soft images, albeit not rainbow-coloured. Corrected or not, I'm yet to see a wide-angle shot through a flat port resolving more than 300 lines per picture height on the edge (which is standard definition performance). The best domes may go up to maybe 800 lines at best, but mostly in a region of 500 lines. And, that's very disappointing.

The 3D experience is also hampered by some barrel distortion, again can be corrected at a cost of further loss of resolution.

Curvature of focus plane can not be corrected in post. The bigger the imager size, the bigger the out of focus corners (or centre, depending on what you focus on). For that reason, 2/3" cameras produce better results than S35. 70mm IMAX scores the worst focus plane curvature. The curvature of focus plane can be minimised by stoping down, say to f/8 or more, again at the cost of diffraction limited sharpness across the entire image.

The bigger the dome the less focus plane curvature. Of course, the bigger the dome the more impossible it is to make it work in 3D.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Pawel,

3D aside, the 5K Epic sensor is rendering many lens' image circle unuseable below 14 to 16mm or so, depending on the glass, vignetting an issue, or so I've heard.

Any thoughts there?

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel,

3D aside, the 5K Epic sensor is rendering many lens' image circle unuseable below 14 to 16mm or so, depending on the glass, vignetting an issue, or so I've heard.

Any thoughts there?

Tom, the 14mm Master Prime (just) covers the Epic sensor. I am hearing that 12mm MP and Tokina 11-16mm also cover the Epic sensor. The Arri Zeis 8R may not cover the entire sensor, but if you crop to 2.39 : 1 aspect ratio, it will cover it fine.

The problem you will find below 14mm is that it is impossible to get sharp edges. Above about 94° angle of view things get a bit tricky. The CinePort has a curvature of 12" - substantially more than the largest dome ports comercially available and, even then, the loss of edge resolution below 14mm (using S35 sensor) becomes significant very quickly. For that reason, the CinePort only covers about 90°, and unlike the Superdome, which covers about 160°.

You may be able to use fisheye lenses, stepped down to at least f/8, preferably f/16, that will produce satisfactory results through a dome at angles 120° - 140°. But, that's if you like fisheye. My research shows that rectiliners will not adapt well beyond about 94° of view using reasonable dome port curvature (say, less than 12"), which is equivalent to about 14mm on Epic sensor.

So, it is not so much the vignetting that makes lenses wider than 14mm unusable on Epic, it is the loss of edge sharpness caused by the air/water intersection that is the limiting factor!

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Thanks Pawel,

For the upcoming shoot in Oz, we are using a geared Duclos 11-16 strapped to an R1 MX in a Gates housing. The combination is optimum. An independent test of this lens, however, on a 5K sensor, has shown that anything wider than 14 will not fly.

I have an Epic in my future, just not sure how this will all work out.

Tom

 

[Pawel Achtel]

...An independent test of this lens, however, on a 5K sensor, has shown that anything wider than 14 will not fly...

Is this because of vignetting or because of the reasons that I mentioned above (loss of sharpness on the edges)? I would have thought the Tokina 11-16 should cover the MX sensor at 11mm with no problems. I just can't see how it would produce satisfactory sharpness at that focal length.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

...Alright, hold the sewer pipe references!:smile:

hahaha, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a sewer pipe, Mike. It is good and practical solution and I would take it any day as a cost effective and reliable solution. :cheers2:

My cringe was at the Deep Atom 3D rig which, I think, is a little bit misleading as the rig seems really suitable for harsh environment above water filming and maybe some underwater macro work. It does not appear to me to be "ready for most challanging underwater tasks" and appears to offer, someone correct me if I'm wrong, optical port that is not able to resolve more than 300 lines on the edges. I'm suspecting Ketch was not aware of such limitation when making his decision to buy the rig.

I also wondner how they provide adjustment for convergence behind a flat port without getting beautiful rainbows. Any insights?

 

[Stephen Strangways]

An independent test of this lens, however, on a 5K sensor, has shown that anything wider than 14 will not fly.

On an EPIC 5K sensor, or something else? Because everything else I've heard on REDuser has been:

Quote from Matt on Twitter:
Just back from RED Studios Hollywood. The Duclos 11-16mm does cover the entire Epic sensor. Bam!

Indeed full coverage...

So here's the deal. The Duclos 11-16mm DOES cover the entire Epic sensor. Yay! However, there are some early PL mount models that have slots that are about .001" too tight, so the pin in the camera doesn't fit into the slot on the lens mount. A quick fix solves the problem and all is well. We will gladly apply this fix to any Duclos 11-16mm, free of charge, if anyone experiences any issues.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Great thread guys, very informative for someone who knows little about 3D and also underwater shooting. Hope the debate will press on, as I love learning about this stuff

Anthony

 

[Johnny Friday]

Stephen,
What is being pointed out is the fact that the tokina and other rectilinear lenses shooting through a dome port do and will (some more than others--many factors come into play) produce CA and will not have edge to edge crispness. Sure...not a PERFECT lens or shot...but you can chase that ghost till the end of time. Center cut it or dont worry about it in some cases. There are some other lens choices i like even more than tokina or arri in the dome port and are fisheye.

I think we can all agree however that there's always work to be done on the imagery side of things, but in the meantime one cannot wait for that to tell a story. Especially when commissioned to do so. A beautiful shot will always be able to tell a story even if it falls off at the edges slightly. And we'll all agree we'd love to have that edge back, but until we have the perfect solution. keep on.....

3d...now a different animal all together. I've listened to a dozen DP's talk about what they did on the early model designs and what they have planned for future designes and what i can tell you is it's no different than where we are today with trying to perfect the dome port issue discussed above, only in that it's a lot trickier and complex at the moment.

 

[Joshua Raven]

Great thread guys, very informative for someone who knows little about 3D and also underwater shooting. Hope the debate will press on, as I love learning about this stuff

Anthony

Agreed, Anthony. This is why I tune in to RedUser every day, to try to soak up some technical info from guys who know a lot more about a particular subject than I do. :thumbup1:

 

[Joshua Raven]

Joshua, I will be able to finalize pricing and specs within the next few days and will start taking orders/deposits next week.

PVC housings normally take about a week to build, aluminum two to four weeks - and we are normally on a one and a half to three week lead time to get into the system - so you add that for the total delivery time.

The lead time can be altered for special situations, but not on a regular basis. And since we need a camera on hand to do final fitting, delivery will be somewhat dependent on camera availability.

I have requested EpicM consideration, but haven't heard anything yet. I'm Sn 206 (shipped on earliest possible date) for stage and there are 45 numbers ahead on the informal list so I should have one before almost any EpicXers.

If you have an M and need one sooner we can work it out with you. I do this all the time - last week I did the initial build for a customer's Phantom Flex, got the camera Friday and worked all weekend and shipped the camera Fedex Monday to LA. Got the main body done and will get the camera back in a few weeks for a few days of final fitting.

Thanks, Michael. The Epic I'll be using should be arriving shortly after your own, and we anticipate using the electronic Canon mount for the underwater stuff. Don't plan on getting wet until the end of June so I'll PM you once we've got the camera in hand to give you plenty of lead time. Thanks for the info!

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

DEEP EPIC Unveiled

DEEP EPIC Unveiled

Shrouded in development for some time now, I’m pleased to officially announce the DEEP EPIC housing.

On the successful heels of DEEP RED, Gates’ design team carries forward several key features that professional underwater cameramen have admired, and current DEEP RED owners will appreciate. DEEP EPIC incorporates the REDMOTE for direct, complete and readily accessible camera control. DEEP EPIC is 25% smaller than DEEP RED, yet retains full buoyancy and trim control. And DEEP EPIC is a Gates through-and-through – ‘bulletproof’, 450 foot depth rating, 2 year warranty and backed by legendary service.


Key Features

Smaller by 25% over DEEP RED.
REDMOTE fully integrated for complete camera control. Top location is readily seen and accessed by the cameraman.
Ports, Port Extenders, Lens Gear Drives, 5.6” External Monitor and Seal Check are carried forward from DEEP RED.
Mechanical or motorized Zoom Control option
Support for all lenses tested and verified on DEEP RED including Angeniuex, Arri, RED and Nikon. Any PL/Nikon glass can be qualified by Gates for DEEP EPIC.
Optional HD-SDI surface or 2nd monitor feed, Comm / Hydrophone audio inputs.
Port options SP80 Dome (glass and acrylic) and FP80 Flat.
Available high output LED lighting by SubAqua/Gates.


Price: under $20K for DEEP EPIC housing, external monitor shell, Seal Check, REDMOTE support, Travel Case. As usual, Ports and Port Extenders are ala carte – choose for your lens(es) and application.

Delivery: late summer 2011

$1000 non-refundable deposits are being taken. Locate a Gates Dealer (http://www.gateshousings.com/dealers/) or Contact Gates directly +1.858.391.0052 / Gates.Sales@GatesHousings.com

DISCLAIMER: The RDCC EPIC camera remains in a state of flux, so everything noted here is subject to change.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Fantastic work Jhon!!!

You have our money for one of this babies too, so to get some 2D UW while filming DEEP ATOM.

M8 available for fitting...

 

[Aaron Braganza]

For all those interested or who have asked in the posts whether there will be any companies designing an underwater housing for the RED EPIC......................AMPHIBICO is in the works designing one! :thumbup1:

If you are interested in being kept informed with further developments as they come, please email to abraganza@amphibico.com

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I will be offering underwater optics for Epic that will work with almost any 3rd party housings (Aquavideo and Gates) and achieve 5k resolution and very high contrast. The new optical system will alow for different focal lengths, including extreme wide angles and, unlike all existing solutions, it will have no significant chromatic distortions, no field curvature (found in domes), no geometric distortions, no magnification factors and feature edge to edge sharpness and high contrast, close focusing and small size.

This system will NOT be available for third party 3D housings. I will be offering my own 3D housing for Epic. Anyone interested, please contact me off line at pawel.achtel (at) 24x7.com.au or send me PM.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

That Glass sounds very interesting Pawel, please say more...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

That Glass sounds very interesting Pawel, please say more...

Thanks Ketch. I'm in the process of patenting, so I can't say much more at the moment other than the new optics will be available in August. I will be in touch with Mike Hastings and Gates to offer this new optics to suit their housings. Prototype testing has been VERY encouraging and I'm excited like pig in the mud. Expect unexpected

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Good day all,

Introducing the REDMOTE Controller.

Like all Gates products, the REDMOTE Controller is designed for reliability, ease of use, and most importantly successful underwater imaging.

But sometimes we make stuff that is just plain cool, too.

J-

 

[Justin Marx]

wow, very nice!!