Zoom H4N and RED timecode sync issue

[Florin Danilov]

Hi there.

Please, who can help me with this issue which is going me nuts for days now. I'm using my Zoom H4N recorder to record audio and, obviously, my epic for the video. I'm trying to sync audio with video in RedCineX by matching the timecode from both devices.

THIS IS A NIGHTMARE.

Because, from time to time RDCX is telling me the WAV is not valid, or the matching button is doing nothing, OR, the matching is perfect, the timecode is the same for audio and video but the sound is everything but synced. I mean, RDCX synced video 1 with audio 3. Which is impossible. The timecode is identical in both zoom and RED, by the second.

What is happening? Definitely is something with the zoom thing, but can tell what. The only thing I found weird is that in Adobe Premiere the R3D timecode is like xx : xx : xx and the wav has something like xx ; xx ; xx

I don't what to manually sync dozens clips....

I use last ver of RDCX and Zoom has firmware 1.72

thanks a lot
Florin

 

[Nick Morrison]

I personally would not be syncing audio in RCX. I'd use an NLE, like Avid or FCP. In an optimal situation, your RECORDER feeds a REFERENCE into the EPIC. That way you can very easily PLURALIZE (or even better DUALEYES) you final graded QTs with proper audio.

 

[Alexander Thomson]

Zoom H4n doesn't have SMPTE timecode syncing. The REDCINE X app requires timecode from a recorder like a Sound Devices 744T or 788T. Your best bet to sync audio automatically will either be Plural Eyes or Final Cut Pro X, synchronize clips.

 

[Florin Danilov]

I personally would not be syncing audio in RCX. I'd use an NLE, like Avid or FCP. In an optimal situation, your RECORDER feeds a REFERENCE into the EPIC. That way you can very easily PLURALIZE (or even better DUALEYES) you final graded QTs with proper audio.

Thanks Nick, but I wanted to use the native raw files without any exporting. And anyway I don't have any scratch sound for different sync software. I used pluraleyes before, but is not working anymore with R3D files. And because H4N has a timecode I did not have any second sound on the camera. I just thought will work like a charm

 

[Phil Holland]

What Alexander said is correct. The Zoom H4N does not "keep", sync, or jam timecode. It only displays recording time.

 

[Florin Danilov]

Thank you all. At least I know exactly what my problem is.

 

[Mike P.]

If you have no reference audio on camera (I'm all for film-nostalgia but all modern cameras record decent audio - take advantage of that) then I hope you used a clap-board (old school, since you didn't have timecode.)

Matching manually isn't difficult... but it does suck the life out of you... Silver lining; it'll generally allow you to reference takes and footage so you know where things are. Good time to add shot metadata too (if you're into that sort of thing.)

 

[George Odell]

I know this is an old post but I wanted to clear something up.

It is possible to use the H4N for recording time code... poor mans double system I call it... but it is a bit cumbersome compared to using the more conventional recorders out there.

Basically, you need to feed time code to the back stereo 1/8" plug of the H4N. This input is for the 3rd and 4th tracks when the recorder is set to 4-channel mode. Audio comes in via the XLR's on the recorder as before.

Now, since the Red's do not output time code you have to use a clock like a Lockit or Denecke box sending the Lemo output (3vP-P) to the camera's time code input and the BNC output (from the generator) to the H4N. They now are receiving identical time code.

After that it does require that the wave files (in fact the H4N does record in the Broadcast Wave Format just like the more expensive machines) from the H4N get a bit of processing to move what is essentially LTC audio time code in to the metadata of the BWF file. They call it the BEXT chunk and it contains the time stamp. On a plain H4N that time stamp is normally time of day. It can be altered after the fact to be the first frame of the time code for the file. Once altered the file can now be used like any other time code BWF file.

Like I said, this is not for the faint of heart but it does work if you have more time then $$.

On most other video cameras that do send time code out the side you can simply feed that to the H4N with out using the generator as a slave for the camera.

 

[Marc Wielage]

It is possible to use the H4N for recording time code... poor mans double system I call it... but it is a bit cumbersome compared to using the more conventional recorders out there.

Important safety tip: recording timecode on a spare audio channel will not guarantee that the sound stays in sync, because there's no reference in the recorder. It's free-wheeling in terms of sync. The price you pay for "real" timecode sound recorders is extremely stable temperature-controlled clock crystals that keep the speed dead-on, and also reference the timecode to the sound signal itself. Without that, it's going to drift over time. If you have short takes, it probably won't be a big factor.

But this is one reason why pro sound recorders with timecode generators are expensive. The second reason why they're expensive is that they have extremely good quality preamps and processing. The Zooms have none of this. I think the Zooms are useful for certain things, but not for scripted productions and not for anybody doing serious shooting. For students, for people with no money, for a quick sound bite, for surreptitious sound recording, for a sound-only interview... they're fine. They're the 2014 equivalent of a 1985 $200 portable cassette deck, and actually better than that in many ways.

 

[George Odell]

When I first proposed using the H4N for recording time code several years ago on another pro video forum I got my head handed to me.

Not really interested in going through that again. Suffice to say my history with double system sync sound using "1985 $200 portable cassette deck(s)" and the like goes back to my days running a small firm called The Film Group. They all laughed at us then, too.

 

[Zach Love]

If you have a $10k camera, maybe spend more than $300 for your audio recorder.

If you don't have more than $300 for audio recorder, in my opinion, you shouldn't of purchased a $10k camera, as cameras lose their value while audio, lights, tripods, lenses... etc. hold their value and are just as important as the camera (if not more).

But if you're stuck with the $10k camera & the $300 audio recorder, then get ready for headaches & spending more time trying to make something work than if you purchased really nice gear.

Yeah the H4N is nice if that is all you can afford, but know what you're getting. If you purchase a "sporty" Saturn coupe don't expect it to drive like a Corvette.

 

[George Odell]

Like deja vu all over again.

If you have a $10k camera, maybe spend more than $300 for your audio recorder.

I don't own a Red. In fact, I don't any HD cameras at all. I rent the model camera I need based on the assignment. As you stated, "cameras lose their value".

As to the point Mr. Weilage made regarding the inability for the H4N to hold its speed, I offer up this very unscientific test I made this afternoon. Using a fairly high-end $2500 Panasonic DVD recorder/player I played out one of the "making of" segments from Start TreK Six (shameless plug... I shot the interview segments with actor Christopher Plummer) into a speaker and recorded it two times using my Zoom H4N. The program runs around 26 minutes.

I then took those two wave files and laid them on the time line of my NLE. Placed a marker at the same audio point at the beginning of the program and went to the end. Played out the last few seconds and they were in perfect sync.

Not close... perfect. Checking at other points within the file and it was the same.

I can explain why this works and will work every time but that is for another day. It's 5:53pm and it's Friday and I'm going home.

Have a good weekend everyone.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I don't own a Red. In fact, I don't any HD cameras at all. I rent the model camera I need based on the assignment. As you stated, "cameras lose their value".

Then why not rent good audio equipment as well? Nobody's forcing you to buy sound recorders, and a really good $3000 sound recorder need only cost maybe $60-$70 a day from some companies.

 

[George Odell]

Then why not rent good audio equipment as well?

I guess you missed the point.

It's not always necessary to buy the most expensive piece of gear to accomplish the task. Good example is Go Pro. What are they down to now like $400 for a $4K camera. And they are being used in theatrical films. No one has suggested they not use those due to the low cost, have they?

The Zoom will hold sync just fine. Just as well as that $3000 recorder for 1/10th the investment. It will accept external time code, and, with a bit of file massaging, will give you BWF files for direct importing into your NLE.

Just offered this up for any others out there who may have had some interest.... and, an open mind :smile5: