Zeiss ZFs or Canon Ls

[Adam Howden]

Howdy all,

Well after much contemplation I've ordered a Epic-X stage 4, and would love some thoughts on my glass options. Excluding Cine style lenses for the moment for budgetary reasons I'm thinking either a kit of Canon Ls primes and zooms or a set of Zeiss ZFs via Nikon-EOS adapter.

This is the Canon Kit I'm considering approx. $12K through B&H
1 24mm f1.4 Prime Lens
1 35mm f1.4 Prime Lens
1 50mm f1.2 Prime Lens
1 85mm F1.2 Prime Lens
1 135mm f2.0 Prime Lens
1 16-35mm f2.8 Zoom Lens
1 24-70mm f2.8 Zoom Lens
1 70-200mm f2.8 Zoom Lens

OR

Zeiss ZF.2 Kit with Case approx $8.5k through B&H
1 21mm f2.8 Prime Lens
1 25mm f2.0 Prime Lens
1 35mm f1.4 Prime Lens
1 50mm f1.4 Prime Lens
1 85mm f1.4 Prime Lens

I'd be running with a Genus Superior follow focus on 15mm rails. Main things to consider are:

Canon L's - Pro's
1) Potential for remote foucs via a Redmote or Redmote Pro
2) Iris control, and lens data
3) Can be used on my 7D kit natively for stills and motion, will probably team them with a 1D-X at some point too
4) Have included zoom lenses for solo, more off the cuff style shooting
5) Image stabilisation
6) Basically Consistent wide aperture across both the primes kit and the zoom kit

Canon L's - Con's
1) Will still need to hire more top end lenses for certain jobs
2) Infinity focus travel, but solved with Zacuto Zip Gear & Hard Stops
3) Aperture adjusts in 1/3 stop steps if I remember correctly

Zeiss ZFs - Pro's
1) Great glass (most likely the same as the compact primes)
2) Manual focus control with decent travel
3) Simple mechanical elegance, no electronics it's all the to touch

Zeiss ZFs - Con's
1) No lens data
2) Will still need to hire more top end lenses for certain jobs
3) Used via Nikon-EOS adapters, but these are cheap and the Bower's I've been using are great so it's a bit of a non issue this one
4) Inconsistent apertures across the lens range

I guess now having put all that down I think the main question is:

Is the reduced focus travel of the Canon Ls compared with the Zeiss ZFs that much of a problem that it's worth giving up all the other benefits...

Please drop some thoughts here if you get a chance

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I've also been looking between the Canons and Zeiss. Have you not considered the ZEs? Proper focus direction seems like a plus no? Also no adapter and lens metadata into the camera body.

 

[Rick Darge]

Mechanics aside, it comes down to a taste thing,

Canons have a contrasty, saturated, punchy image with a beautiful bokeh. They are warmer to my eye.

Zeiss has a colder, sterile, sharper look. Beautiful mechanics.

If it says anything, I sold all my ZF lenses to invest in L series primes instead but I'm severely Canon-biased

 

[Danai Chutinaton]

I would go with the Zeiss ZE since u can get a canon mount for the epic. This way you get the cine style focus rotation which is the same as the Canons. For me the fact that the focus ring on the Canons do't have hard stops is a very serious annoyance.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

What set would rent better in your opinion guys — ZEs or Canon Ls?

 

[Kitersfa]

I'm biased towards Nikon and have a set of ZF's but I love the Nikons. I've used them side by side with Master primes and though mechanics and the speed are obviously different they are both just as sharp. It's hard to tell a difference unless you shoot all the way open. The Nikon's ghost a little with strong highlights when fully open. They are beautiful lenses though. People may disagree but because of the Red lenses aren't as important, as long as they're primes. Here's my reel which is probably 70% Nikon ZF and Nikon Nikkors.

And Nikon's would rent better in my opinion, everyone has canon lenses so Nikon's might be a little more sought after and harder to find.

 

[Joe Kleber]

I was taking a look at the ZEs yesterday and my canon mount was working flawlessly with two of the three lenses I tried (the 18mm and the 28mm). Unfortunately, the 85mm had problems.....

When the contacts connected, the iris started opening and closing wildly. It wouldn't stop, no matter what we tried. We took the lens off and tried it on several other canon DSLRs. ....no problems whatsoever.

...not sure what else to think except that RED may still have some work to do on their mapping.

 

[jimhare]

The ZFs are fantastic. Having a physical iris control is great, but the opposite focus is an issue if others will be focussing who are used to lenses going the other way.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Like everyone else my first question is "Why ZF + adapter instead of ZE?" They're the same lenses.

Don't get too attached to the idea of "sets." These aren't cine primes. They don't match. Feel free to mix and match.

In that spirit : Canon 50 1.2 is much superior to Zeiss 50 1.4 and Zeiss 21 is better than Canon 24. Charts say Canon 85 1.2 is better than Zeiss 85 1.4 but I don't have personal experience on that one. And if you really don't mind adapters, Nikon 14-24 is better than Canon 16-35.

And by the way, Zeiss 25 is pretty lame, I'd skip it.

 

[Naim Sutherland]

I like the ZE lenses, though I haven't used them extensively. I think for me the wireless follow focus on the new Redmote probably tips the scales, to be honest. It sucks in the meantime with the short focus throws and having to put a solution together for hard stops at infinity is annoying, but doable.

Affordable wireless FF is just too good to pass up, even if it is an unknown amount of time away. I hope it will be smooth and reliable. I have experienced some inconsistencies with the Birger mount on the One, and I hope that isn't the case with Scarlet/Epic.

I guess another con is that the 24-70mm 2.8L isn't very sharp at 2.8 in my experience. I have used a few of them, and they are the softest of the L glass, in my opinion (though I often don't mind a bit of extra softness for faces... when I have a deeper scene I definitely try for a 4 at least). The primes are good, though.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

I have a set of ZF's that rent out Live crazy.
And I supplemented them with a 11-16 Tokina.
They are all cinefied by RP and I really love how solid they are, but the images they make are exceptional.
i have the Tokina, 21, 28, 35(1.4), 50, 85 and 100
Skip the 25, slower and just meh...

 

[David W. Jones]

Not on your list, but I'd get the PL mount, Duclos 11-16, and Red 17-50. Then rent primes when needed until you can pop for a nice set of primes.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

If you decide to go the Canon route, you MUST buy the Tokina 11-16mm f2.8. It's a killer piece of glass, and is, far and away, the best lens per dollar available anywhere.

With so many primes in that kit you mention (and we own them all, as a matter of fact), I can't understand why you are adding the longer zooms. The 16-35mm zoom is a nice lens for tight spots, and I dearly miss ours, but you will do just fine with the primes you mention and the Tokina.

Electronic lens control using the Birger on our RED is wonderfully smooth and I suspect it will be on the RED/Canon mount in time. The iris will, of course, remain an issue.

Stephen

 

[Jason Wingrove]

Also depends on if you spend more time having someone pull focus for you or if you look after your own sharps. I always feel guilty giving L glass to a focus puller to work with especially if its a remote focus shoot like steadicam or cranes etc. Not quite so much guilt if I'm giving them a Duclos Cinemoded ZE with a large delrin gear, slightly larger focus scale, metal construction and hard stops, also a lend that focuses the correct direction as aopposed to ZF's

Also depends on if you need to pull iris much, yes you can do it with a vari ND or with the ZF's but ZE's rely on electronic iris control.

 

[Peter Staubs]

ZE's if you want hard stops, canon if you want any kind of autofocus, I hear that red is going to do some amazing stuff with autofocus. I love canons, but the Zeiss may be a tiny bit sharper, in some focal lengths(the canon 85 L is sooo sharp to my eyes)... I haven't done any tests but ... thats my opinion


edit: ohh yeah ZE's electronic iris control... so no hard stops there

 

[Peter Staubs]

Maybe just get 3 or 4 lenses and rent the rest depending on the job. I'd get the canon 70-200, 85, 50, and either 24 or 16-35. It really depends on what kind of work you do most. the most cost effective would be 16- 35, 50 and 70-200.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

The issue with mixing and matching lenses from different manufacturers is that each manufacturer will give you a slightly different tint. This isn't an issue in photography, but in video post work can get tricky when matching Canons, Nikons and Zeiss shots used in the same shot. That's my experience anyways, so I'd recommend to stick with one flavor of glass, unless the shot requires a specific lens.
If tint matching doesn't bother you, then choose the besto of the best (Zeiss 21mm f/2.8, Canon 50mm f/2.8 (or the Zeiss 50mm f/2.0 if you want MACRO at this angle), Canon 85mm f/1.2 (or the Contax Zeiss 60th year anniversary f/1.2, but that's like 5K alone), Zeiss 100 Makro f/2.0, Canon 135mm f/2.0). Zooms, get the Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8, Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8, Nikon 24-70mm f/2.8, and the Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8).

If you do have concern with matching tint, then you might want to consider a Duclos set (ZF.2 for 9K); they've all been Cine modified and have the 50 macro lens.

However, as was stated here, Canon L glass is nice, much faster (especially the 50mm f/1.2 and 85mm f/1.2) and RED has the Canon mount already (Nikon smart mount will come late in 2012 by the looks of it). Remote follow focus is something that RED has been working on and when it arrives all of us who don't have Canon glass will be a bit jealous. Also, from now to Jan 7th, you can get huge savings on the L glass at B&H.

Let us know what you decide!

 

[Adam Howden]

Thanks for all your thoughts so far people, appreciate it. Note that Zeiss are releasing a new 25mm F2.0 which looks pretty snazzy too! That's the 25mm I'm talking about.

You're right though there's probably no real benefit in getting the ZFs, I'm still mentally a Nikon user. ZEs would most likely be the better choice here. Although I do have a Genus Superior Follow Focus which is really great actually!

I think I'm leaning towards the Canon's at this stage, the F1.2's are just too hard to resist. That and the possibility of remote focus and I'm there! Well nearly

 

[Ron Lagerlof]

With all the comments on Nikon, but no current Epic mount, what are the pros and cons of using an adapter? I, too, have a ton of Nikon Lenses but ordered my Epic with a Canon Ti mount thinking that the lens data and control would be better for me right out of the gate (so to speak). Incidentally, my primary use will be underwater in the new Gates Deep Epic which should ship any day now. I also have access to a full set of Zeiss high speeds.

So, here's my question, should I change my order to PL mount and use adapters with my Nikon glass?

 

[Adam Howden]

Hi Ron, I'm using Nikon-EOS adapter's by Bower, they're cheap and great so you can easily afford one for each lens in the kit, once they're on you don't even notice them. I may be wrong but I don't think there's many Nikon-PL adapters around because of the flange depth issues