Zacuto's "The great camera shootout 2011"

[Alexander Ibrahim]

But I also think we're picking nits here, both cameras produce pretty nice images.

Agreed!

There is far too much tendency to poison the well here, so to speak, by suggesting any upcoming comparison tests are already biased ... It's silly.

Agreed!

They are just tests, ones of many, you ALWAYS take them with a grain of salt until you shoot your own tests. ALWAYS. Never take them too seriously, no matter what the source.

Agreed!

Boy am I in a good mood.

One of the things I dislike about RedUser is the well-poisoning.

Its really just noise.

There are often legitimate concerns with the various tests... but by the time those concerns are posted, they are just drowned out by all the vitriol.

I remember a guy who wrote an AC Mag article about Red One M, and he was completely lambasted here.

A lot of people called him biased and all sorts of nasty things. When he came on RedUser to defend his article it got worse.

I had concerns about his article... but by the time I posted the poor guy was completely overwhelmed by a wall of hate.

Let's not do that people.

Let's see the test (I still haven't seen the emmy winning edition...) and then let's be sure to think objectively about it before we react in writing here!

While we are at it, let's be open to the notion that our favorite camera does in fact have flaws and be ready to learn how other systems work better.

The proof of that positive notion can be found at Red itself. Epic is a physical response to everything that people complained about in Red One. (including the article I alluded to above!) Its only possible because the folks at Red realized their camera wasn't perfect and that they had a lot to learn.

If they can be objective about their baby, then so should we.

 

[Jannard]

Group tests like this are best served with the manufacturers in attendance... IMHO.

1. If the manufacturers show up, they can't complain when something was done wrong.

2. They can make sure their cameras have the proper firmware and maintenance. I have already heard complaints about this test because the oldest firmware (pre-800 or something like that) was used on the F35.

3. The manufacturers can supervise the post... invariably the biggest drama in a test. Someone please tell them to use REDcolor2 and REDlogFilm.

We are comfortable that people now know what a RED ONE MX does and doesn't do. Any test results that stray very far from what everyone already knows will be discarded. We have learned our lesson about tests with pre-production cameras so there was no reason to have an EPIC there.

I'm quite sure this particular test will be well thought out and fairness will be rule #1. Not having the camera companies there will invariably lead to complaints and grousing... some baseless and some possibly with merit. So... as David says, shoot your own tests.

Jim

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

We have learned our lesson about tests with pre-production cameras so there was no reason to have an EPIC there.

Jim

Jim, I thought I read a post from you that EPIC was frozen and 'released for production' in October/November last year?

I guess you define 'production' pretty closely as 'what we're actually shipping today'...

Mike

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Group tests like this are best served with the manufacturers in attendance... IMHO.

1. If the manufacturers show up, they can't complain when something was done wrong.

2. They can make sure their cameras have the proper firmware and maintenance. I have already heard complaints about this test because the oldest firmware (pre-800 or something like that) was used on the F35.

3. The manufacturers can supervise the post... invariably the biggest drama in a test. Someone please tell them to use REDcolor2 and REDlogFilm.

We are comfortable that people now know what a RED ONE MX does and doesn't do. Any test results that stray very far from what everyone already knows will be discarded. We have learned our lesson about tests with pre-production cameras so there was no reason to have an EPIC there.

I'm quite sure this particular test will be well thought out and fairness will be rule #1. Not having the camera companies there will invariably lead to complaints and grousing... some baseless and some possibly with merit. So... as David says, shoot your own tests.

Jim

Jim, I'm not typically one to question you ... but if a "pre-production" camera is good enough to shoot multi-hundred million dollar features, seems natural to assume it should be fine for a "test" like this? (Though I know pixel peeping, transcoding and post errors can completely skew any such results ...)

Anyway, after reading yours and especially David's response feeling a bit stupid for attacking someone as having potential Arri bias. I don't need a test to prove that the Red MX rocks, or that the Epic will rock even more -- and like you said, I will do my own tests hopefully this June once Stage 3 opens ......

In the meantime, I look forward to a great show and even more to a successful launch of the Epic-M and X and tests from some good friends in the community

 

[Jannard]

Jim, I thought I read a post from you that EPIC was frozen and 'released for production' in October/November last year?

I guess you define 'production' pretty closely as 'what we're actually shipping today'...

Mike

I could have been more clear on that post. The hardware was locked down... not the firmware. As you would expect, firmware and color science continue to be refined. Sending EPIC to a test we can't attend (too much stuff going on) doesn't seem prudent. Additionally... with the testing and shooting we have done recently with these early cameras in the field we have been able to find things to tweak on a few boards. All of this will make for a better production camera. And we are getting close.

Jim

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

And we are getting close.

Jim

best part CLOSE.....

 

[Michael Brennan]

Here is a Robert Primes quote from a few months back:
"The ARRI Alexa seems to be the presumptive heir to the crown. Its stunning imagery, vast latitude and amazing mix of image quietness and sensitivity combine with superb ergonomics and an open architecture to win my vote."

It is dangerous to critise a one line comment without the context.
Perhaps "stunning", "vast", "amazing" and "superb" are a personal summary of a complex technical test?




Mike Brennan

 

[Andrew Rieger]

It is dangerous to critise a one line comment without the context.
Perhaps "stunning", "vast", "amazing" and "superb" are a personal summary of a complex technical test?
Mike Brennan

Sorry, I am not trying to be critical of Robert, he knows much more than I do but it I was just pointing out that he is already a die-hard Arri fan. I am not implying that he will bash Red but he is probably going in with the opinion that Arri is better. Sure, Red will be tested the same as the Alexa but it seems a little wrong to not include the Epic in this test since it is Red's latest and greatest.

Needless to say, I like Zacuto's last test and they are passionate guys so I will probably end up watching it. I just don't put much weight in these tests.

 

[Conrad Hunziker]

Arri will win this "unbiased" test. According to dvxuser, the test is being done by Robert Primes ASC, not Zacuto.

I really think you should wait for the results of the "test".

There is no perfect camera out there. Each one makes compromises in certain areas and has advantages in others. These "tests" show which is which - how cameras preform under similar circumstances.

I use quotes around the word "tests" because that assumes there will be a winner and a loser. But in this case, I think these will be more like a standard measurement, not to be interpreted as an absolute that A camera is better than B camera. Each person can come away with a different look at the results. They see they like a quality of a certain camera in a certain aspect and can live with the shortcomings. Others see its shortcomings as insurmountable. This all comes back to perspective, choices and the type/style of projects you are doing.

Remember, even a DVX in the hands of a skilled artist can produce wonderful images - as Allen Daviau, ASC proved nearly a decade ago.

 

[Clint Lealos]

What a bummer. I was invited by Kessler Crane to be part of the Zacuto Shootout and work their cranes and cine sliders, but I was already booked on a job in Istanbul Would have been interesting to see the behind the scenes. Did anybody from RedUser attend the Shootout?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Zacuto camera shootouts are very entertaining but also you should know that's a pure Soap Opera.

It's not gonna tell you which camera is the best and that set up looks more like a Roman's gladiator arena.

Those gladiators are probably the bunch of mostly poor and totally biased camera testers

that heavily fight to get the best images out of cameras for their own gladiator (DoP) survival and their chosen camera brand destiny ... :laugh:

Steve Weiss from Zacuto always tries to play an emperor :devil: and his sort of stemma or dynasty also include collaborators like a Jens Bogehegn & Mandy Rogers...

But again it's entertaining soap opera that has main purpose to advertise and help for better sales of Zacuto products at the end of the game :laugh:

Then in that sort of internet driven Colosseum like an environment we (the industry) globally like an audience can vote between those gladiators and their brands: :thumbup1: :angry: :frown2: :laugh:

but voting results were always skewed by human error and later adjusted to a favor of certain brands...:laugh:

As you know well that I always vote first for RED of course, but also my second is Phantom Flex and the third is Panasonic GH2 (probably not included in that test)

but this little camera (BUT not its weak AVCHD codec) can easily beat Alexa and F35 with its superb image quality, ergonomics, versatility, price, value for the money, etc,... :hurray: of course all in 1080p world.

Also Zacuto's DSLRs gear empire is under heavy treat from other makers (Europe, Asia,...)

and maybe at the end they gonna finish frustrated in a small shop kiosk like an Austrian (former Empire)...

 

[Conrad Hunziker]

2. They can make sure their cameras have the proper firmware and maintenance. I have already heard complaints about this test because the oldest firmware (pre-800 or something like that) was used on the F35.

3. The manufacturers can supervise the post... invariably the biggest drama in a test. Someone please tell them to use REDcolor2 and REDlogFilm.

I'm quite sure this particular test will be well thought out and fairness will be rule #1.

Im quite sure that the firmware on the Red side will be given its fair shake. And RC2/RLF was already the standard to be used with the Red footage. But Im also sure that there are tests that dont require the use of RC2/RLF (or S-Log for that matter) for comparative results, which should help to eliminate any manufacturer or tester bias.

I think Robert Primes can come up with a fair way to evaluate the cameras, to expose weaknesses and strengths with each system. Even if not, the 40 or so other people involved with the tests, some of whom are "pro-Red", will help to balance out any perceived imperfections of Bob's.

The tests are not going to be perfect, and there is NO perfect test - which is why each of us should test and RETEST our cameras. These days the world of cinematography & filmmaking is changing every 6 months it seems. To stay on top of it requires knowledge that can only be gained first hand. .....So go test something.

 

[Jonathon Laing]

There must be so many tests they have to do on a EPIC. I mean how can you compare it to anything else?

You have different RAW compression ratios, HDRx™ modes, magic motion and all the other options options options..


Jono

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I'm sure the Epic will get a thorough testing on the sets of The Hobbit and Spiderman and many other movies being shot with them.

 

[Steve G]

the third is Panasonic GH2 (probably not included in that test)

but this little camera (also not its weak codec) can easily beat Alexa and F35 with image quality, ergonomics, versatility, price, etc,... :hurray: of course in 1080p world.

Once again, absolute nonsense, apart from price.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Why do we keep bringing up the GH2??? Why? I've been using one for a few weeks now and all I can say is, "meh...". Any further discussion belongs over at DVXUser...

 

[Liam Hall]

Great, another pissing competition...

 

[Alex MacLean]

It would be great if Red supplys an Epic and ideally a DIT to make sure they do the tests properly.

 

[steve weiss]

Let me clear up some confusion about the test. I'm sorry this is so long but it needs to be to get the story straight. The Great Camera Shootout 2010 was a three part web series documenting DSLR's and how they compared with 35mm Film. Many have asked me why the RED was not included in the The Great Camera Shootout 2010. It was decided that in 2010 that we just wanted to compare all of the various DSLR's and how they compared to film. RED wasn't a DSLR so it wasn't included.

It's also been brought up that Zacuto could have some kind of bias to these tests because I'm an equipment maker. This is not true. I actually have three different companies, Zacuto rentals, Zacuto films & Zacuto USA. Zacuto films has its own 6 man staff that creates all of Zacuto's original programming like FilmFellas, Critics, The Great Camera Shootout and our new series coming called BTS. We are also working on a completely narrative drama show that we hope to compete with television except it will only be available on the web. The Great Camera Shootout 2010 was the only web show to win an Midwest Emmy and we are very proud of that. We are filmmakers first and equipment makers second. Most people don't know that I have been directing mostly corporate and commercial work since 1983 with Jens as my DP, I've actually only been in the products business since 2005. Jens and I, and our various production companies have created over 600 programs/videos. The Irony about the whole testing thing for me is that I personally am not so hung up on what camera I use. I am a huge believer in it's all about the people you have behind the camera, the script, the edit that makes for great films, but that's a different story. My documentary here is the process, trials and tribulations, and the actual evaluation of the cameras that make up The Great Camera Shootout 2011.

Now the followup that everyone has been asking me for. The Great Camera Shootout 2011 (GCS2011) is currently in production and it's purpose is to showcase digital cinema cameras. The GCS2011 is a documentary film of the Single Chip Camera Evaluation (SCCE) conducted by Robert Primes ASC and a full staff of scientists, engineers & digital specialists, almost 40 people in total working on the SCCE. Zacuto has nothing to do whatsoever with the administering of the SCCE. We even went so far as to only use competitors equipment on the cameras and excluded using any Zacuto gear in the SCCE. Zacuto was the impetus behind the SCCE, although its sole purpose is to create a documentary about the SCCE which it calls The Great Camera Shootout 2011 that will be a 3 part web series.

We did ask all of the camera manufactures to send a representative (and some took us up on it) so that they could not say that we used their camera improperly. We also asked RED for the use of an Epic but was told they were all being used. Believe me I would have loved to have had and Epic in this test but I understand that they are in demand. My tests have never been a winner take all test. We've done four of these tests and the purpose is just to see how various cameras perform in different types of testing situations, like latitude, highlights, lowlight, resolution, color, etc. I believe no camera is right for every situation. The problem is you have people buying cameras where we used to rent them and everyone is looking for the perfect camera. In the old days 1980's/90's before we started any project we would have a production meeting to decide what was the right camera for the job. I wouldn't want to be running in combat with a huge camera and I wouldn't want a 35mm film camera in a super low light situation. So that's why this test is really a comparison and not really a test.

The SCCE will be the most scientific camera comparison to date testing these cameras: 35mm film, Arri Alexa, Weiscam, Sony F35, Phantom, RED One MX, Sony F3, Panasonic AF100, Canon 5D, 1D and Nikon D7000. The SCCE also did some testing on the new ACES protocol. Phase one was a three day shoot on the Mole Richardson stages and ended on February 2nd, 2011. What I experienced documenting this SCCE was the most professional non biased testing I've ever seen in my life. Bob and his crew were so professional, dedicated and planned, nothing was left to chance or done haphazard. Phase one was the more scientific portion of the testing phase with 5 different testing stations shooting 12 different tests. A back lit set of latitude tests, charts and colors. A front lit set of resolution charts, colors charts shot in different color temperature lights. A motion test that was created and built by Clairmont Camera (high speed spinning wheels with lines on them) to test for motion artifacts as well as a strobe light test. A beautiful still life setup stylized with different colors and textures. A skin tone color test with three people of various skin tones ranging from black to medium to pale white all in the same frame. We recorded all of this on camera native formats as well as S.Two, OB1 and Codex. All together there were approximately 1000 shots from all of these tests and formats. Phase two, TBD will be actual scenes, challanging ones, similar to the ones in The Great Camera Shootout 2010. After the SCCE is wrapped and edited there will be video recorded and non-recorded screenings in LA, possibly NY and 15 recorded screenings in the Zacuto theater in the Zacuto booth at NAB. Viewers will watch the SCCE in 2 & possibly 4K resolutions and comment on what they are seeing. Many ASC DP's, producers and directors will be watching this and commenting on what they saw whilst seeing it projected. This will give the web viewer the opportunity to hear from experts in the field as they just watched it on the cinema screen. As the Director of the GCS2011, it's the closest way I can think of to give the web viewers the cinema experience. All of this material will be edited into 3 30 minute webisodes that will make up The Great Camera Shootout 2011 and will premiere on the Zacuto website as well as other websites in June 2011. Producers: Jens Bogehegn, Steve Weiss, Scott Lynch & Daniel Skubal. Directed by: Steve Weiss

This test will be fair and unbiased and I think you will really enjoy both the SCCE when it comes out in April and the GCS2011 when it comes out in June
Here you can see the crew: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/313214/Single Chip Evaluation Crew Photo 2011.jpg
Steve Weiss

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

I could have been more clear on that post. The hardware was locked down... not the firmware. As you would expect, firmware and color science continue to be refined. Sending EPIC to a test we can't attend (too much stuff going on) doesn't seem prudent. Additionally... with the testing and shooting we have done recently with these early cameras in the field we have been able to find things to tweak on a few boards. All of this will make for a better production camera. And we are getting close.

Jim

Makes sense; of course firmware is never frozen. Thanks for the clarification.

Mike