Zacuto Great Camera Shootout - and free parking!

[Rehan K]

1) I think this document also says that the F65 team was just a "Sony Approved Cinematographer". They have no DP name like everyone else. Maybe he/she was just a camera tech...and didn't feel qualified to change the lighting?

2) The test is a crime because a lot of what the Epic does "better" (5K, HDRX, RAW, Slow-Mo etc) was never showcased. Instead, the Epic was forced to compete only in categories the other cameras could fare well in.

It's like asking Lebron to not rebound or pass, cuz his overall game's too good.

The Epic DP did shoot in HDRx but he decided not to use that shot because he liked the non-HDRX version better. RAW? Doesn't Alexa and F65 shoot RAW too? Isn't F65 4K too? Why are F65 people not whining and calling the shootout a crime because it's not shown in 4K? And how on earth are you going to release a documentary on the web in 4K anyway?


By the way, what does it say about F65 when it can look better than everyone else without having to relight the scene? They also took the least amount of time in post production. 30 minutes, compared to hour and half that everyone else took.

 

[António Fagundes]

I reckon the F65 is going to be 'The Beast' for the next couple of years.

 

[Mike Tiffee]

And how on earth are you going to release a documentary on the web in 4K anyway?

YouTube

 

[Filip Orlandic]

I reckon the F65 is going to be 'The Beast' for the next couple of years.

F65 and Alexa 2.8K will be forgotten overnight with Alexa 4K.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

F65 and Alexa 2.8K will be forgotten overnight with Alexa 4K.

Probably true, if we're talking about internet buzz. In the real world, those cameras are not going to disappear overnight and will be used for lots of different things for years to come. Here in Italy, the Red One is just getting started in some markets (tv series).

oh, and let's not forget there's a sleeping giant that's going to be very awake around November...

 

[Rehan K]

F65 and Alexa 2.8K will be forgotten overnight with Alexa 4K.

Why would F65 will be forgotten overnight? It's a 20 MP sensor that shoots 16-bit 4K RAW at 1 to 120 fps. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.

I wonder if Sony would consider putting the F65 sensor in cheaper "F6" body, as an upgrade to F3, but probably not. However, I am sure the sensor from FS700 (which is also 4K) will definitely make it into F3 upgrade next year.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

The documentary is right on one thing, it doesn't matter what camera you use, its what you can do with it. That's what film making is all about, talent, creativity, confidence. And Red keeps claiming that its not. That's its all about 5K!

Give it a break.

Find me one instance where red has stated that please. I believe you are misquoting, they are a camera company not a filmmaking school they deal with the equipment and making it the best they possibly can. They continue to say 1080 was a mistake (in regards to coming up with a digital replacement for film), never have they said a 5k camera can trump story directing or acting, talent creativity and confidence... that's just absurd and I don't know who in the world would say that, and equally I don't know why people keep complaining about it... it's very obvious. But we are not here to discuss the merits of artistic choices in this medium we are here discussing the technology that allows us the freedom to make whatever creative choices we want.

it was a great documentary on filmmaking and a very unusual test at this point, then again there is more segments to come out so lets just wait and see the rest of the doc.

 

[António Fagundes]

Stephen, Jim comes here often saying things like, if its not shot and finished 4K, it's not professional in our eyes. It doesn't count. That's lame, and it doesn't really propel a filmmaking friendly attitude. And that also means that every single filmmaker in the world shooting digital its not a professional in Red's eyes, except of course, for Tom Lowe... Forget Darius Wolski, Robert Richardson and Roger Deakins, their all amateurs in Jim's eyes.

Isn't that just a little a too ridiculous thing to say from the owner?! How can you even take seriously a man that even thinks something like this?

Sure, Red's a manufacturer, but that doesn't mean that its the industry that has to adapt to them, rather than the other way around. 'Artists' gravitate towards the look and feel of an image, not to the camera's internal computing power. People that make movies, go for aesthetics rather than tech. Its only in the large scale of amateur/semi pro market that you find people holding on to tech specs to 'feel' they belong to the 'game'.

Right now, Red is the only camera on the market that can look awful if the software is mishandled. That doesn't happen with any other manufacturer, they're filmmaking friendly enough to be stupid proof. And that's what a camera should be. Film making is not about the camera, its about a camera that should be 'invisible' enough to become the perfect tool from the filmmakers imagination onto the screen, not something you haver to 'deal with' as you're in the 'zone'.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

António, there's a lot of strong rhetoric in your post: "Right now, Red is the only camera on the market that can look awful if the software is mishandled." - utterly wrong. Set the wrong settings in-camera on a Sony or Canon or Panasonic and you'll get ugly images. Use the wrong raw development settings on a Canon still image, or on Arri Raw Converter or F65 Raw converter and you'll make an ugly mess of things. I have no problem with robust, fact based arguments, but you do your own point of view no good by resorting to ridiculous hyperbole.

For what it's worth, the whole concept of RAW in our cameras is to make things simpler while you're shooting - you don't have to worry about the right supergamma/hypergamma/ultragamma log/video/cine whatsit, or worry that you've set the wrong white balance, or left some old look in the settings that's wrong for your current shot.

Graeme

 

[Rehan K]

Stephen, Jim comes here often saying things like, if its not shot and finished 4K, it's not professional in our eyes. It doesn't count. .

Jim probably says this because Red was the only 4K digital camera. 4K market is going to get really saturated with cheap 4K cameras. FS700 is $8000, and in the next two to three years, we will have like a half a dozen under $10,000 camera that would be capable of shooting 4K. Once that happens, you will hear a lot less "4K" or nothing mantra here ...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Jim probably says this because Red was the only 4K digital camera. 4K market is going to really saturate with cheap 4K cameras. FS700 is $8000, and in the next two to three years, we will have like a half a dozen under $10,000 camera that would be capable of shooting 4K. Once that happens, you will hear a lot less "4K" or nothing mantra here ...

You sound and behave like a troll. I don't really appreciate you signing up and coming on these boards to pretty much just tell us we suck. If you have nothing useful or remotely positive to contribute, and all you are here todo is complain, I would appreciate if you found a more appropriate forum for your views: ie, dvxuser.

The name of this forum is "redUSER". Ie for people who actively USE red cameras or the associated footage. Or people who are interested in doing so.

If none of these categories fit your objectives, then again...maybe you should find a forum where your views will be greater appreciated?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I am not a fanboy of anything or anyone, but the tests contradict my direct experiences using these tools with competent post production.

I think Zacuto knows that their mainly prosumer user base would be offended if DSLRs were not found to be "surprisingly good". They are not "surprisingly good"nor "surprisingly similar" to professional tools - but saying this makes the no-budget wedding video maker feel better about the tools he is forced to use, and then associate this good feeling with Zacuto.

 

[Paul Schneider]

Zacuto doesn't care about any camera...they only care about the creativity of who is behind it. Thats a fact.

 

[Rehan K]

You sound and behave like a troll. I don't really appreciate you signing up and coming on these boards to pretty much just tell us we suck. If you have nothing useful or remotely positive to contribute, and all you are here todo is complain, I would appreciate if you found a more appropriate forum for your views: ie, dvxuser.

The name of this forum is "redUSER". Ie for people who actively USE red cameras or the associated footage. Or people who are interested in doing so.

If none of these categories fit your objectives, then again...maybe you should find a forum where your views will be greater appreciated?

I suggest you control your anger and avoid calling people you disagree with as "trolls". Do you dispute anything that I posted above? 4K market is going to get really saturated. There is nothing really special about 4K. With faster memory cards and sensors, implementing 4K even on cheaper DSLRs would be pretty cheap. The topic of this thread is Zacuto Shootout. Every camera and DP were treated equally and given opportunity. Calling the documentary a "crime" is silly.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Zacuto doesn't care about any camera...they only care about the creativity of who is behind it. Thats a fact.

I think they care about selling to their target market. I don't blame them, but I think that's a fact.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I suggest you control your anger and avoid calling people you disagree with as "trolls". Do you dispute anything that I posted above? 4K market is going to get really saturated. There is nothing really special about 4K. With faster memory cards and sensors, implementing 4K even on cheaper DSLRs would be pretty cheap. The topic of this thread is Zacuto Shootout. Every camera and DP were treated equally and given opportunity. Calling the documentary a "crime" is silly.

There is no mass market for 4K cameras, and so no R&D budgets for such technology except at Red, Arri and Sony's high end division - as they sell few units of high priced tools. When even pro TV producers still in large numbers don't understand the benefits of Raw, don't hold your breath for a slew of new Raw 4K cameras - there is simply almost no market for them, and the market that does exist is already very well served by Red, Arri, etc.

 

[Paul Schneider]

In this case I know it is. Steve has become a good friend and I can assure you he is very comfortable about the place of his products in the marketplace. He knows his customers and respects their needs, but he doesn't pander to them...and thats one of the things I really like about the company.

 

[Rehan K]

There is no mass market for 4K cameras.

That doesn't matter. Here is an example: There is no need for p&S still cameras for over 4 MP. People who buy these cameras use them to post photos on facebook and email friends, but yet, given MP sell, $100 cameras are now approaching 20 MP. How many people who buy these cameras really need 20 MP? No one does, but yet marketing department kept pushing for more MP because they knew it will sell on BestBuy shelves. I believe Red has been using the same marketing trick for the past 6 years with 4K. How many movies were released as 4K in the past 6 years? How many people own 4K monitors/TVs? But "4K" was still a very nice marketing theme for Red. The same marketing forces would come at consumer level. Someone mentioned youtube allows uploading 2K/4K videos. If Sony/Panasonic think "4K" sticker on a consumer camera would allow them to sell a million of them (to youtube uploaders), they will definitely do that.

And I really do think in the next 2 to 3 years, you are going to see several dozen "4K" consumer cameras. With fast memory cards, large disks, and very fast sensor, this shouldn't be that hard to implement on the next generation of consumer cameras.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Calling the documentary a "crime" is silly.

If you had millions of your own dollars at risk in a company and you felt their product was being mis-treated in a very public fashion that may have a negative impact on sales your perspective would be very different. I don't know Mr. Jannard, but from what I have observed he is anything but silly when it comes to business.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I agree, I don't think market placement is at issue here. Zacuto's products are extremely targeted by nature and in terms of company size, perceived value and perceived quality they occupy an extremely sparsely populated space. However I think I can point out without contributing to the conspiracy theories that there is a difference between market placement and deliberately appealing to your customer base. Marketing is about more than mere placement and I think it fair to view the documentary in terms of it's marketing value to Zacuto. They may or may not be pandering, and they may not have their own horse in this race but I don't believe for a second that the Zacuto company and it's representatives are without bias on the subject matter.

As I mentioned elsewhere, a skilled author of a documentary has complete control over how the subject is perceived. What kind of an idiot would voluntarily place their product's entire reputation in the hands of anyone else, let alone a documentary film maker with competing interests? Certainly it must have come as no suprise to anyone that manufacturer participation was low, so I find it absurd that some still seem to imply that Red's refusal to participate was indicative of some sort of weakness.

In this case I know it is. Steve has become a good friend and I can assure you he is very comfortable about the place of his products in the marketplace. He knows his customers and respects their needs, but he doesn't pander to them...and thats one of the things I really like about the company.