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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Working with children in film

Alex, I agree with you so much so from personal experience it is not even funny!!

I love children PERIOD!

I unfortunately been of the many misfortunes lost the possibility to have kids my self, but not all hope is lost, thanks to technology :~).

I have however so many little kids around me when at home in Italy, from my brothers and sisters and many cousins and hunts, and they always reprimand me because I talk to them like an adult, and insist that they don't understand me.

Because my conditions I'm forgiven almost always, but I truly believe that no matter what they are the ones wrong, as I interact with them at a much higher level, and even so obviously they do not always follow, mostly because of me, :~) they do understand and surprise me so many timers with they responses even long time after, that I'm so overwhelmed by their level of understanding g and intelligence, its a shame at times of how Children are interpreted in Film and or Television, but fortunately they also are the exceptional cases, such as in "The Sixth Sense" were we also see how the child is not believed or seriously paid attention to, yet it demonstrates an incredible level of understanding of things.
 
Agree. I think the fear of working with children in film is pretty baseless, but equally, you have to like and connect with kids in the first place, and realize their potential if you're ever going to pull it off.

Back in Shakespeare's day, the whole concept of childhood really didn't exisit, and they were referred to as 'little adults'. Thanks to mega toy company merchandising, nowadays kids are trapped and tapped for every penny for as long as possible.

Three people we don't see much of in film is children, the very elderly, and the handicapped (are we allowed to use that word these days?). I'm talking in meaningful roles here.

'Something about Mary' comes to mind.
 
I've had extremely bad experiences with children on the set and I've seen brilliand kids on the set who are waay more professional than most adults. I think children can give a lot to a shoot, but you definitely need to cast really carefully, and stock up on your patience beforehand.
 
I've shot highly technical jobs with kids several times now and had no real problems (knock on wood).

You just have to be careful and cast very thoroughly. There's also a barrier to were they start to be to young and don't really understand that they're working. 5-6 years old is the balance. You can of course get kids that's younger then that and understands. I've been on set with a 4 year old were I was asking if it was ok that we went 20min overtime. She looked at me and said... It's ok but you have to talk to my agent about my over time pay LOL.

And yes, the trick is to treat them like "small" adults, meaning that you understand that they're still kids but you let them know it's serious and you take them serious.
 
Alex,

Thanks for this Thread, Working with children in film

Chasing Kangaroos script was amazing. You have captured the deeper level of love and compassion siblings have and is not always recognized. As parents we more often see the surface bickering/fighting brought about by moods and/or contempt for some disturbing actions on the part of the brother or sister. Your screenplay really did capture selflessness of a person in regard for another. Thanks.

The thread continues with much insight from many and I found it insightful. I am stumped with the casting portion, however, do we have to have a Psychologist to gain the insight into a child's psyche? Do we observe the parent? Do we cast inexperienced child actors? Realizing that once he/she is on the set we need to be cognitive of our overall behavior in their presence. But, we need to do that with actors of any age . . . right?

Wayne
3B Digital Studios
 
I've worked with kids in quite a few commercials. Once auditioned and approved by client we call the kid(s) over daily to our office a week before the shoot. They get used to the crew and are so much more relaxed during filming. Always works for us.
 
Wayne Beck said:
Do we cast inexperienced child actors?
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Thank you for watching Chasing Kangaroos. Both actors were inexperienced - I think the boy did one music video, but for the girl it was her first time on film.


This flick also, it was the girl's first time on film.

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=w...quick#!/video/video.php?v=321558505103&ref=mf

There are two other children in this film that had never acted before either. All went super smooth, and I continue to cast 'never-dones' with zero issues.


Really all they want is to be included in the whole as equals. Some like to see mom in the wings, just in case, but they totally get into it. Do we need to get into their heads to know how to work with them? Not really. Certainly no more than the grown-ups. I'd even argue less.

I just really love what they can bring to a story - it feels refreshingly honest.

This is one of my fave young 'actresses'. Only been in three short films, but everyone raves about her professionalism.

http://alexwhitmer.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/mail-google-com-2.jpg

alex
 
Ramesh Jai said:
I've worked with kids in quite a few commercials. Once auditioned and approved by client we call the kid(s) over daily to our office a week before the shoot. They get used to the crew and are so much more relaxed during filming. Always works for us.
Click to expand...

That's an important point. If they are tossed in with strangers and no time to adjust, it can cause some slow starts.

a
 
Alex,

I noted in your Screenplay Wednesday Farewell that your DP was very astute to camera angels and lense levels. It showed where child and adult were in same frame which added to the script except where music score made it difficult to hear line (only a couple of places). Someone gave a tremendous amount of thought about location, activity and scene arangements. I am assuming it was you as the Screenwriter which helped the DP with his/her shots and camera positions.

Good stuff!!! Please keep it up.

Wayne
3B Digital Studios
 
alexwhitmer said:
Back in Shakespeare's day, the whole concept of childhood really didn't exisit, and they were referred to as 'little adults'. Thanks to mega toy company merchandising, nowadays kids are trapped and tapped for every penny for as long as possible.
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Well there are concepts which most children simply won't understand. There are limits. :D

Adults then get frustrated when the child never gets it instead of recognizing that they're attempting a concept which a child of that age has mental framework to understand.
 
Off hand there is a developmental stage before which empathy is pretty much absent particularly in the abstract. The classic "How would you think billy would feel if you ate all the cake?" would be met with a blank stare or a rehearsed response.

Also counting theory comes into play. If you ask a very young child to do something 5 times there's a developmental point at which counting is all but impossible.

Those are two quick examples but there are many where you would be wasting your energy. Doesn't mean you can't get the result you're going for. Just means you should phrase you discussion in a way that is less confusing.

For instance I wouldn't ask a 6 year old to move to their left a few feet. I would ask them to please move a few steps that (points) way.

That mostly just applies to younger children. After 12 or so you're pretty much dealing with an adult. In fact many people don't ever develop to levels beyond the age of 12 in some of the more abstract areas.

I think your attitude about treating them like an adult is valid. You don't need to talk down to children. But there are real limitations on abstract concepts that you shouldn't expect to necessarily be there. I've seen so many parents get frustrated and angry with their children because they aren't understanding the overly abstract morality that their parents are expecting from them.
 
Agree, and all good points, but I think that would apply to the 5-year-old children (preschool). As you say, just an adjustment in the way one gives instructions can make a big difference. Kids up around the 8 and 9, maybe even 7, would have time, left and right and so on pretty much figured out. I would hope, anyways.

I guess I'm just not seeing how adjusting for children's needs (or the elderly) could present any additional burdens. Certainly they are not preoccupied with the 'will-this-camera-make-my-ass-look-fat' hang-ups, or the narcissist obsessions with which angles and which lighting will best suit their facial features. Who hasn't been there?

It all evens out in the end.

One thing that has worked for me is to have the parents sit with the kids and go over the screenplay in detail well before shooting begins, and explain things as they go. I've written some pretty dark stuff for kids, and to date, have had no issues with the kids grasping concepts. Whether the kids really understand the depth or the consequences of the role as it might play out in real life (drugs, murder, abuse, psychoses), I have no idea, but they do go into it understanding what it is they are 'pretending' to be.

I for one really love writing/creating roles for children - the non-Disney stuff of course. Dark stuff. Mysterious and emotional stuff. Blindness, deafness, runaways, kidnappings - the stuff we occasionally read about in the papers. The stuff children's fairy tales and fables are full of.

The story-telling stuff so much of film is derived from.

On the downside, I'm pretty sure this limits my audience for screenplays. :(
 
alexwhitmer said:
I for one really love writing/creating roles for children - the non-Disney stuff of course. Dark stuff. Mysterious and emotional stuff. Blindness, deafness, runaways, kidnappings - the stuff we occasionally read about in the papers. The stuff children's fairy tales and fables are full of.

The story-telling stuff so much of film is derived from.

On the downside, I'm pretty sure this limits my audience for screenplays. :(
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Alex, don't be sad :(

Children are the most wonderful of inventions. Their creative minds are almost always at work and are a challenge to stay up with. I have five grandchildren, oldest 7, but all adjust to the resources at hand in their activities and do a great job of making what ever it is needing to happen, happen, from within their own resourcefulness.

I personally would rather do what I love doing, and losing a little weight in the wait for work, than doing what I hate by taking the bait that landed me in ill fate. -- the older some of us older children get the more our resources have vanished!!!! sorry.:blush:

Your work is stellar and so many of us on this forum can and have learned a lot from your threads and postings about script writting.

Wayne
3B Digital Studios
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Well there are concepts which most children simply won't understand. There are limits. :D

Adults then get frustrated when the child never gets it instead of recognizing that they're attempting a concept which a child of that age has mental framework to understand.
Click to expand...

I see you points. But especially with empathy there are many paradigm shifts lately. The whole concept of emotional "perspective taking" is nowadays regarded to apply to children of a very small age. (A two year old will comfort his sibling in an according situation. A 3 year old can intellectually understand how somebody else feels or would feel in a certain situation (How would somebody look if I gave him a big pop-sickle?). They just haven't learnt to communicate their thoughts verbally with ease yet.
That's why it is important to make them play in front of the camera. Take them serious, but make it a game.



alexwhitmer said:
Back in Shakespeare's day, the whole concept of childhood really didn't exisit, and they were referred to as 'little adults'. Thanks to mega toy company merchandising, nowadays kids are trapped and tapped for every penny for as long as possible.
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Well, back then, corporal punishment was thought to be the essence of a good up-bringing as well. I think we learnt a lot about the needs and skills of children since. Behaving accordingly is not a bad idea. Also there are cultural difference in how children are treated around the world. So as Gavin said in his later post, make just sure you treat the kid according to its abilities but in general do not underestimate them. It's sad that we forget how clever we were back then :)
 
Wayne Beck said:
many of us on this forum can and have learned a lot from your threads and postings about script writting.
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Very kind words. Hopefully one of these days I will actually sell something and then take the needed time to finish the book!

And yes, there will be a chapter on writing for and working with children!!

Cheers

a
 
Felix K. said:
Well, back then, corporal punishment was thought to be the essence of a good up-bringing as well. I think we learnt a lot about the needs and skills of children since. Behaving accordingly is not a bad idea. Also there are cultural difference in how children are treated around the world. So as Gavin said in his later post, make just sure you treat the kid according to its abilities but in general do not underestimate them. It's sad that we forget how clever we were back then :)
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Spot on. And agree culture does play into it, and even within that individual families will vary. So far I have only had films with roles for children made in the US, Romania and Australia. Just starting on a project that will film in India, and just sent one off that will film in Ethiopia next month. Projects in Lithuania, Latvia and Great Britain never got off the ground. Rats.

My dream is to have films from all over the planet.

No, I don't only write for children, but it is a great adventure when I do.

Years ago I worked in a burger place, and a boy was chatting with me and sharing some animated story. Great kid. Then mom came up and said to him 'why do you have to be different?' Man, I wanted to pop her in the jaw.

a
 
I'm planning to shoot a feature early next year that will have a little girl as the lead. I'm hoping to cast my own daughter, if she is up for it.[/QUOTE]

I've been shooting a film that my son (14) has a small role in. It is one of the most rewarding things I have ever done. He has grown up seeing me gone for some extended periods of time so seeing the other side of production has helped him put things in perspective. He amazed me by how focused he was and how much he brought to the role. I have found that by really listening to what my kids say they teach me all I need to know.

I sincerely hope your daughter takes the role.

Best, Peter
 
alexwhitmer said:
Three people we don't see much of in film is children, the very elderly, and the handicapped (are we allowed to use that word these days?). I'm talking in meaningful roles here.
Click to expand...


he he, my own brother calls me Andicappato, Italian for Handicapped, even so the more proper term used is Less Able, instead of Handicapped and or Disable.

My friend instead tells me then rather then less able I'm totally useless, :~), but I still love him just the same.

But I do tend to agree with you on this as well, we do not see many of such great roles, which could go to this classes, and we should.
 
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