Workflow difference

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

Hi everyone,

When it comes to RED what in your own opinion is the biggest advantage & disadvantage compared to shooting on 35mm/16mm FILM?

I dont mean that ceratain RED features are'nt available yet... this will be fixed with time...

 

[laguun]

Hi everyone,

When it comes to RED what in your own opinion is the biggest advantage & disadvantage compared to shooting on 35mm/16mm FILM?

I dont mean that ceratain RED features are'nt available yet... this will be fixed with time...

there is no workflow for red.

you will transcode your redcine on osx (no monitoring in rgb) to yuv 1080 prores. and edit your fullfeature on fcp.


then you will DI in 1K .
inside scratch on windows (no 4k monitoring there).

from there on you record to 4k - without ever having seen what you did.
thats the proposed red workflow.


besides that:
all the usual workflows, in uncompressed.

 

[GlennChan]

1- On set / during production:

You do not need to wait for dailies to see your footage. It is (theoretically?) possible to look at your footage for problems and re-shooting anything if necessary. It might also be easier to pre-visualize certain special effects / spot such problems by being able to look at the footage.

A completion bond company may be paranoid and require the production to make 2 (?or more?) backups of the footage at all times. You might have someone sitting there on set checking the footage and making backups.

2- In one of Jim's posts, he has some comments from Peter Jackson on how it's like to shoot with Red. You can arguably shoot somewhat faster since you can record rehearsals / don't need to worry about blowing a take.

The equipment is cheaper when shooting with multiple cameras. (But there can be quality compromises when shooting multi-camera.)

But this is debatable.

3- If you don't slate shots on set, you save a small amount of time on set.

In post, the slate helps fix audio not syncing up (and errors with notes being incorrect). I don't do telecine myself, but almost all the time there are audio sync errors once you get to telecine (on some of the shots).
With Red it should be cheaper to fix these problems since you're tying up a FCP (or whatever) system and not a telecine bay.

4- You can potentially offline at HD resolution and check focus issues during offline.
*This may not necessarily happen since some editors like their Avids and workflows they are used to.

5- You can pull publicity stills at 4k from your footage.

6- For finishing, you can either:
A- Do it the tedious way, and manually export + conform from Red Alert. This is what they did on Crossing the Line from what I understand. Painful yes but not that expensive for high-end productions (unless you are really strapped on time --> overtime). But really the plan is to...

B- Have Redcine automate that process.
--Export an EDL (or XML?) to Redcine.
--Redcine debayers all the clips at high quality, to 4K (or whatever resolution).
--Conform the files in your finishing system. Hopefully it supports conforming projects from an EDL and data files.
--Hopefully Red will do away with frame-accuracy problems with tape workflows.

*The finishing facility will need a copy of ALL the Red footage shot. If the production is unorganized then there can be a snag here.
*Other snags are possible (illegal characters, reel names too long, etc. etc.).

7- Dailies: I'm not sure here.

8- In the big picture...

Probably your biggest workflow advantage is that the Red workflow is potentially cheaper. You don't have film costs (e.g. telecine), the camera is cheaper.
You can also avoid the use of tape decks and use commodity computer tape systems instead; though there are some nice things about video tape decks (e.g. random access, SDI output [i.e. it's compatible, it works with a lot of other equipment], real-time).

Time-wise, I don't think that there's necessarily huge savings in time during production, offline editing, and online editing.

 

[GlennChan]

there is no workflow for red.

Easy there laguun...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

there is no workflow for red.

...But you go on to describe one potential workflow. :huh:

you will transcode your redcine on osx (no monitoring in rgb) to yuv 1080 prores. and edit your fullfeature on fcp.

That's only one possible solution. FCP will natively support REDCODE in the near future, no transcoding to ProRes for editing. It can already be edited now without ProRes just by creating QT proxies in .5K, 1K and 2K. A 2K proxy -- that's cool.

then you will DI in 1K .

Why?

inside scratch on windows (no 4k monitoring there).

SCRATCH has native support for REDCODE. I'm unsure of its level of completeness, I think it's still essentially in beta form, but so is the camera.

from there on you record to 4k - without ever having seen what you did. thats the proposed red workflow.

There's ways to check along the way. ...Even viewing in 4K if you want to spend enough on the hardware to do so. I'm hoping we see some affordable 4K viewing solutions from RED and possibly others at NAB '08.

besides that:
all the usual workflows, in uncompressed.

Any current DI workflow can apply to RED once the footage is exported to common formats like DPX or TIFF sequences.

 

[Stuart English]

RED Workflow v's Film

RED Workflow v's Film

there is no workflow for red.

you will transcode your redcine on osx (no monitoring in rgb) to yuv 1080 prores. and edit your fullfeature on fcp.

then you will DI in 1K .
inside scratch on windows (no 4k monitoring there).

from there on you record to 4k - without ever having seen what you did.
thats the proposed red workflow.

Sorry that is just nonsense. If you wish you can just shoot and edit it just as you do film today.

1. Shoot it (and also review it in the field on your laptop)
2. Transfer it from the "RAW" state to an editorial resolution for editing on Final Cut Pro, Avid or many other NLEs using REDCINE as the transfer device.
3. Do your editorial and sound editing
4. Re-export to 2K or 4K DPX and or TIFF files for D.I and or visual effects.
5. Finish in 2K or 4K on your choice of many uncompressed compositing / color timing effects platforms.

Advantages v's film - lower cost of media, portability and size of camera, instant ability to see what you have, abiity to preview looks, longer record times.

 

[laguun]

...But you go on to describe one potential workflow. :huh:
That's only one possible solution. FCP will natively support REDCODE in the near future, no transcoding to ProRes for editing. It can already be edited now without ProRes just by creating QT proxies in .5K, 1K and 2K. A 2K proxy -- that's cool.

Final Cut pro isn´t 4k. Its 2K.
Final Cut Pro is RGB 8 bit, coming from the 12 bit from the camera. Or you transcode everything to YUV.
A 2K proxy won´t playback in realtime on any pc with osx from apple.
the 1k proxy will. And how do you monitor 1k?

SCRATCH has native support for REDCODE. I'm unsure of its level of completeness, I think it's still essentially in beta form, but so is the camera.

In 1K.
In 2k, scratch isn´t realtime for good reasons.
to have a solid quality debayer, even in "only" 2k, there are no computers as of yet.
scratch does 1k realtime with redcode. not more, not less. 2k isn´t realtime, 4k isn´t realtime and won´t be for years to come.

furthermore, you need to chage the OS between OSX and windows XP in this workflow.

There's ways to check along the way. ...Even viewing in 4K if you want to spend enough on the hardware to do so. I'm hoping we see some affordable 4K viewing solutions from RED and possibly others at NAB '08.

there arey system above and below the 50.000 CD-rom of assimilate who -do- 4k realtime, with display.
dvs clipster, outselling anyone in that marketspace is an good example.

Any current DI workflow can apply to RED once the footage is exported to common formats like DPX or TIFF sequences.

yeah, but usually i do an offline edit and scan then.
redalert doesnt have timecode.
forget DI workflows as of now.

its purely datacentric. no timecode. no offline, no batch.
and i do have to invest $$.$$$ to $$$.$$$$ for the postsystem and the given informations are not sufficient.

 

[JD Holloway]

gloves are off....

 

[laguun]

2. Transfer it from the "RAW" state to an editorial resolution for editing on Final Cut Pro, Avid or many other NLEs using REDCINE as the transfer device.

i just had redalert, not redcine last week. i am under the impression that redcineisn´t available yet - did i miss something?

4. Re-export to 2K or 4K DPX and or TIFF files for D.I and or visual effects.

will redcine suport edl?

Advantages v's film - lower cost of media, portability and size of camera, instant ability to see what you have, abiity to preview looks, longer record times.

fully agreed.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

laguun,

I started to reply to several points directly, but I won't. Why am I chasing you around the forums today as you bitch and complain about what all RED currently doesn't do? You have three cameras in the 900 range... A LOT is going to change by then. Your nitpickings over lack of timecode in RED Alert won't even matter in a few weeks. I take it that you still have not bothered to contact Luki or anyone at Assimilate regarding SCRATCH. Just based on your comment of the "50.000 cd-rom". Scratch will do 4K in realtime... The nVidia Quadroplex currently doesn't allow for driving the Sony SXRD projector in realtime though. I have several Macs that can play 2K in realtime as if it's nothin' -- even the old G5 quad doesn't struggle with 2K in FCP. QT previews or proxies are set up by REDQUICK (last I heard) and allow for realtime preview and proxy edit at .5K, 1K and 2K resolutions.

Based on several of your posts over the past couple hours, I have to ask.... Have you been drinking? Excessively?

 

[Brook Willard]

Oh, snap!

 

[Greg M]

Its not too late to get your money back and buy a Sony.

 

[Rob Lohman]

I have 2K REDCODE playing in real-time in REDCINE here right now....

Here's a potential workflow:

1) in case of recording audio separately, jam-sync the camera & audio recorder with a lockit for example. Slate shots with a timecode slate as usual. For monitoring you have our RED LCD & EVF (electronic, with an extra area to see the microphone dip in, for example) as well as HDMI & HD-SDI (720p & 1080) outputs.

1b) it's easy to check your recordings on set with a laptop or desktop (big screen attached would be nice). It tends to be good to have a separate truck on set (if you're shooting out on location) to do the copying & checking of footage before you ship it off to editorial (assuming you want a safety copy). Camera truck might be a bit crowded / not much room depending on the amount of gear and the size of the truck and its facilities available.

2) copy data from your recording device (compact flash / drive) to multiple backup drives / tapes. A tool that can do verified copies would be advisable

3) edit in native REDCODE in 2K/1K/0.5K (2048, 1024 or 512 wide) or transcode to another format like Apple ProRes or AVID DNxHD and load up the audio tracks which might need sub-frame alignment with the video, but should be close

4) when edit is complete export a DPX (or TIFF) sequence form RED ALERT / REDCINE / SCRATCH to your DI or load the files natively into Scratch to do your conform, your audio takes the normal route

5) from here on out the RED is like your normal DI flow

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

uhhhhhhhh ... there are so many workflows to finish with Red it is just silly.

we try a new one every few days.

this thread is just silly.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

In 1K.
In 2k, scratch isn´t realtime for good reasons.
to have a solid quality debayer, even in "only" 2k, there are no computers as of yet.
scratch does 1k realtime with redcode. not more, not less. 2k isn´t realtime, 4k isn´t realtime and won´t be for years to come.

furthermore, you need to chage the OS between OSX and windows XP in this workflow.

Like most technology companies, we are constantly evolving. 2K is almost realtime right now... I was at a customer site in LA today looking at RED footage playing back at about 22/23fps on a 2K debayer. It is constantly getting better, and since I'm pretty sure you don't have SCRATCH you probably aren't keeping up with the very rapid improvements on REDCODE handling.

there arey system above and below the 50.000 CD-rom of assimilate

Laguun, you are always welcome to contact me or anyone else at ASSIMILATE to get a formal quote - which you haven't done yet. All I can say is that this number as relates to the RED workflow is wrong.

forget DI workflows as of now.

its purely datacentric. no timecode. no offline, no batch.
and i do have to invest $$.$$$ to $$$.$$$$ for the postsystem and the given informations are not sufficient.

REDCINE (and SCRATCH) will output DPX files with proper timecode and reelID metadata in the headers that can be used on any DI system that reads that information.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[laguun]

Like most technology companies, we are constantly evolving. 2K is almost realtime right now... I was at a customer site in LA today looking at RED footage playing back at about 22/23fps on a 2K debayer. It is constantly getting better, and since I'm pretty sure you don't have SCRATCH you probably aren't keeping up with the very rapid improvements on REDCODE handling.

luki, i am used to 25p progressive at 2k since many many years.

this might be new to you, not to us and our customers.

if you intend to be witty - i can tell you that one of the reasons i might again not invest on a scratch system is a certain attitude a certain manufacturer exposes in public. i have a good understanding with nacho, and if you indeed need to alter that, you are welcome.

Laguun, you are always welcome to contact me or anyone else at ASSIMILATE to get a formal quote - which you haven't done yet. All I can say is that this number as relates to the RED workflow is wrong.

luki, as you probably know better than i do, you will negotiate prices for your product.
you basicly gave scratch away for customers in belgium, charged full list price on the east coast etc.

i can tell you that after the bancrupt 5Dcompany (the company your employer assimilate was formed from) i am a slight little bit sceptical to put my money on wise commenting people, but rather will pay below 10.000 for apple (or another company which will be certainly in the market in 24 months).

I furthermore recommend that you contact your sales division to get a copy of customer relationship 101.

REDCINE (and SCRATCH) will output DPX files with proper timecode and reelID metadata in the headers that can be used on any DI system that reads that information.

good. as you probably know, redcine wasn´t released yet.
24 terrabytes on the quadcore DI, quadro equipped workstation are below 5.000€.
they play back -real- 4k with real -4k- display, and i hope you are looking to implement such features in the near future with the scratch product.

i, honestly, don´t exactly understand why you keep pushing me.
giving the fact that i precisley understand the limitations of your product - and the limitations of other manufactueres, what could you intend doin so?

shall we go into the details of secondary color correction and 3d? or why a 4k or 2k debayer in realtime will be a compromise in quality? or why its silly of iridas to support OSX? whatever? or can you maybe nor find a slighty more diplomatic tone?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

luki, i am used to 25p progressive at 2k since many many years. this might be new to you, not to us and our customers.

Perhaps I wasn't completely clear - I am talking about the 2K debayer from REDCODE RAW only.

2K RGB has been realtime since the launch of SCRATCH. So is 4K, and we have a pretty large base of customers that can confirm this. I'm glad to hear that you're getting 15-20p. SCRATCH has been able to do 24 and 25p at those resolutions for awhile now.

i can tell you that after the bancrupt 5Dcompany (the company your employer assimilate was formed from) i am a slight little bit sceptical to put my money on wise commenting people, but rather will pay below 10.000 for apple (or another company which will be certainly in the market in 24 months).

So you and everybody else reading this thread know - ASSIMILATE was not formed from 5D. The founders of ASSIMILATE did indeed work at 5D. But ASSIMILATE was founded long after the collapse of 5D, and as corporate entities, they are completely unrelated.

good. as you probably know, redcine wasn´t released yet. 24 terrabytes on the quadcore DI, quadro equipped workstation are below 5.000€. they play back -real- 4k with real -4k- display, and i hope you are looking to implement such features in the near future with the scratch product.

SCRATCH can playback 4K RGB in realtime without any issues, and we have several customers doing that. We can feed the SXRD right now through a Quadroplex, but it isn't realtime.

And honestly - there just isn't a lot of demand for that. Some of the biggest DI companies in the world - EFilm, Technicolor, Co3, etc. - grade 4K material on 2K projectors - because it makes sense. There are technical issues with the SXRD that make it (right now) a difficult projector to work with for client-supervised DI. Sony, like everyone else, is constantly on the move and those issues will be fixed.

i, honestly, don´t exactly understand why you keep pushing me. giving the fact that i precisley understand the limitations of your product - and the limitations of other manufactueres, what could you intend doin so?

Laguun, I'm not trying to push you, really. I got a little hot under the collar a week or so ago, and after Joe smacked me, I realized he was right. Sorry about that! But I will speak up when you publish incorrect information.

You have said:

1) "you will want to be the first berlin basing customer for the 50.000 euro scratch. no one has it, no one needs it"

We do have customers in Berlin. They have it, and need it. A fantastic RED workflow with SCRATCH is far less than 50.000 Euro.

2) "btw: there isn´t -one- 5d cyborg or assimilate scratch in town i am aware of."

That you're aware of. Also, there are (to my knowledge) at least 2 Cyborgs still in operation in Berlin.

3) " and i am getting more and more irritated by the unexisting workflow." and " there is no workflow for red."

There are a *lot* of workflows that exist and work right now. In LA alone, I know of RED projects that are being edited on FCP and Media Composer, and are going to be finished on SCRATCH, Resolve, iQ, and FilmMaster.

You clearly don't like the existing workflows. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

5) "you basicly gave scratch away for customers in belgium, charged full list price on the east coast "

That is incorrect.

6) the bancrupt 5Dcompany (the company your employer assimilate was formed from)

ASSIMILATE was not formed from 5D. The founders of ASSIMILATE worked at 5D when it was still in business. Big difference.

7) "its purely datacentric. no timecode. no offline, no batch."

FCP reads timecode from the QT Reference of R3D files right now as an offline tool. As Jim has said, REDCINE is in beta and it can do batch. SCRATCH can also do batch.

If you want to discuss secondaries and other features, I'd be happy to do that. But please move it to Off Topic, since that doesn't really have to do with 4K Workflow as it relates to RED.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[laguun]

2K RGB has been realtime since the launch of SCRATCH. So is 4K, and we have a pretty large base of customers that can confirm this. I'm glad to hear that you're getting 15-20p. SCRATCH has been able to do 24 and 25p at those resolutions for awhile now.

Luki, Scratch doesn´t even have a -physical- 4k display possibility. You can´t display 4k on any scratch. You lack the hardware.

DVS clister would be one of the systems which -displays- and plays back 4k. You need 4*DVI or 8*HD-SDI for this.
And it is another inexpensive, midprice system as scratch.

I am never certain with you if its marketing or missing knowledge.
scratch -can´t- display 4k.

regarding your "pretty large" customer base - how many thousand or ten of thousands?

adobe -which is your competition- and apple -which is your competition- and avid -which is your competition- have 100.000s of customers. never went bancrupt within the last 5 years.

All of them are already in the DI market.

i would estimate that scratch almost has 100 customers -worldwide-.

therefore, i would recommend to lower the tone.

So you and everybody else reading this thread know - ASSIMILATE was not formed from 5D. The founders of ASSIMILATE did indeed work at 5D. But ASSIMILATE was founded long after the collapse of 5D, and as corporate entities, they are completely unrelated.

logically, as discreet bought all assets of 5D and there was neither corporate body or intellectual property left.

Including cyborg, which was the flagship compositing system (discontinued) and colossus (now lustre) which was the OEM di system.

SCRATCH can playback 4K RGB in realtime without any issues, and we have several customers doing that.

scratch can´t display 4k in realtime. It is simply missing the necessary inerfaces playback maybe, but not display.
several systems in the lower and mid-price range as scratch do exactly that:4k realtime display. scratch doesn´t.

We can feed the SXRD right now through a Quadroplex, but it isn't realtime.

systems as clipster play in realtime to the srx. in 4k. multistream. with realtime colorcorrection.

And honestly - there just isn't a lot of demand for that.

I suppose you are not aware that DVS sold several thoudands units of their products within the recent decades.

There are technical issues with the SXRD that make it (right now) a difficult projector to work with for client-supervised DI. Sony, like everyone else, is constantly on the move and those issues will be fixed.

you might suppose so, but within the last 4 years all 4k SRXs i have worked with, seen or administrated were just working flawless. and i don´t know how you would be able to comment on the srx - as far i know your employer never afforded one and scratch -cant- display 4k in realtime.

So how would you describe your -issues- with the srx, besides that you (and many DI suites) don´t have one but red uses them for their projections at NAB or IBC?

Furthermore, what -else- as 4k display would you recommend on a screen? any suggestions?

I got a little hot under the collar a week or so ago, and after Joe smacked me, I realized he was right. Sorry about that! But I will speak up when you publish incorrect information.

You would be much better off if you would always attack potential customers in public.
i honestly wonder why no one of your management has stopped your lets say a littble bit to enthousiastic communications here, let alone the direct personal attacks on possible buyers.

You have said:

We do have customers in Berlin. They have it, and need it. A fantastic RED workflow with SCRATCH is far less than 50.000 Euro.
2) "btw: there isn´t -one- 5d cyborg or assimilate scratch in town i am aware of."
That you're aware of. Also, there are (to my knowledge) at least 2 Cyborgs still in operation in Berlin.

Ok, - who? Or is it not allowed to name your customers?
Furthermore i am totally aware that scratch is given for free as NFR, 30.000 or 50.000, just depending on the possible value of the customer, partner or reseller.

So, who are these 2 clients of assimilate in berlin? I would like o know as i might have some work for them.

There are a *lot* of workflows that exist and work right now. In LA alone, I know of RED projects that are being edited on FCP and Media Composer, and are going to be finished on SCRATCH, Resolve, iQ, and FilmMaster.

Luki, i won´t go into details with you - but let me tell you that i have redalert sitting here with footage -directly besides this workstation-
in front of me.

It doesn´t have EDL support. Scratch (or FCP or any native redcode application) can´t play back the files in realtime in 2k or even in 4k.
You might call that a workflow. I don´t. I call it a workaround.

You clearly don't like the existing workflows. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

No one will like them for longform or scenic. Anyone will simply decompress anything - and thats not how red can and will work in the future. Or any raw camera, that is.
.

5) "you basicly gave scratch away for customers in belgium, charged full list price on the east coast "
That is incorrect.

Aha. That you charged list price or that you gave licenses for free with hardware?

And shall we start to go into detail, with listing scandinavian, benelux and belgian resellers? Discussing the BFS distribution system etc? if you like so - you are welcome.

ASSIMILATE was not formed from 5D. The founders of ASSIMILATE worked at 5D when it was still in business. Big difference.

Aha. Just to point that out: No one was formed from 5d after the bankrupt. All possessions, products and IP were sold.
7) "its purely datacentric. no timecode. no offline, no batch."

FCP reads timecode from the QT Reference of R3D files right now as an offline tool. As Jim has said, REDCINE is in beta and it can do batch. SCRATCH can also do batch.

The R3D Files will crash FCP , if not transcoded in import, as of yet. At least the ones here.
Furthermore, FCP won´t export 4K, or even anything more than 8bit in RGB.
REDCINE isn´t here yet, and will hopefully solve many problems. I however -won´t- recommend the existing redcode work flow as of now, as it doesn´t work. That is for long form fullfeatures in my case. Uncompressed is the way to go there - as of now. For 30secs or 5mins, it is ok. Not for 90min.

I am not complaining about the beta-status of the red software. But i am pointing out what does and what doesn´t work.

If you want to discuss secondaries and other features, I'd be happy to do that. But please move it to Off Topic, since that doesn't really have to do with 4K Workflow as it relates to RED.

I really do not want to discuss any features here. Never did.
I asked you to continue communication with me via PM.

But as you continue to address me in the forums public: Regarding secondaries in scratch - i just referred to the issue that 3D AND secondaries don´t work together as of now. Already fixed or a somewhat more architectural issue?

And i will recommend to lower your excitement a slight little bit.

Its good what scratch can do.
It can playback Redcode in 1K in realtime. Not in 2 or 4K.
Scratch can -read- 4k files in realtime, but not redcode.
And Scratch can´t display 4k RT anyhow - as it has no 4k RT interfaces.
I am only pointing out where customers could be mis leaded. Thats all.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Clipster is a great system... the guy in LA (Erik B.) is someone I have a lot of respect for. Baselight 8 is also a great system. The SXRD is a good projector and I'm sure you and your team have the skill (and $$$) necessary to set them up.

I'm tired of the hostility. It's not helpful and just gives me agita.

Good luck.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Rob Lohman]

you might suppose so, but within the last 4 years all 4k SRXs i have worked with, seen or administrated were just working flawless....... So how would you describe your -issues- with the srx, besides that you (and many DI suites) don´t have one but red uses them for their projections at NAB or IBC?

It's not used for grading because it's not as accurate with colors as other (2K) projectors. Of course it's working flawless (it better for that amount of money). But that doesn't mean it's the best projector (for a specific job).

but let me tell you that i have redalert sitting here with footage -directly besides this workstation-in front of me.
....It doesn´t have EDL support

We never claimed it did

The R3D Files will crash FCP , if not transcoded in import, as of yet. At least the ones here.

You can't load R3D files in FCP. You can only load the QuickTime files. And they don't crash FCP. If they do you're using an old QuickTime codec as I've explained to you twice now.

I would like to turn this into a more constructive conversation. Can you list (simple points, no long texts please) which features you think are missing and you would need to have for a proper workflow? Please don't talk specific software programs but *features*.

Thank you