Will the Scarlet 2/3" include auto gain, autofocus, and image stabilization?

[Chris Davis]

I know that the Scarlet 2/3 inch is aimed at the indie digital cine market, but still, why not include the three things that would allow it to dominate the video market as well – autofocus, auto gain, and optical image stabilization. All the video cameras have these. If RED would just include these three things, it would have no competition at all in the video market -- current cameras under $10,000 would be obsolete.

If production studios do not want to use the RED workflow, they can just transcode into ProRes or DXnHD. And for the most part they don’t really care about the lack of 35 mm depth of field, unlike the cine folks. But I do not think they will tolerate a lack of autofocus, auto gain, and optical image stabilization.

What do you think?

 

[GPSchnyder]

I think auto gain, autofocus, and image stabilization are the first three things to shut off when trying to capture useable images, so is it really worth the effort to programm something like that? Autofocus would be cool in some cases, but autogain and image stabilisation? First changes the lighting uncontrolled and the snd. makes my pans jump.

Maybe do an extended autofocus with several focuspoints or something like that, but the other two are imho worthless.

 

[arun]

I know that the Scarlet 2/3 inch is aimed at the indie digital cine market, but still, why not include the three things that would allow it to dominate the video market as well – autofocus, auto gain, and optical image stabilization. All the video cameras have these. If RED would just include these three things, it would have no competition at all in the video market -- current cameras under $10,000 would be obsolete.

If production studios do not want to use the RED workflow, they can just transcode into ProRes or DXnHD. And for the most part they don’t really care about the lack of 35 mm depth of field, unlike the cine folks. But I do not think they will tolerate a lack of autofocus, auto gain, and optical image stabilization.

What do you think?

Still stuck in consumer camcorders? and comparing with a cinema camera? unbelivable

 

[conrad gaunt]

Still stuck in consumer camcorders? and comparing with a cinema camera? unbelivable lol

Thats a bit harsh.

I don't think of the R1 as just a cine camera, though that may be its main design, and my personal use for it. I think of it as a general image acquisition device, along with DSLRs and scanners..

If the camera had autofocus, I'd probably find an experimental use for it, perhaps recording timelapse of plants in such a way that foliage expands and pushs the focus around, I don't know.. but I know I don't always like to be in control..

Someone wanting a great quality video camera, might find a scarlet with auto focus just the ticket.. don't see anything unbelievable (ps, practice your spelling) ??

 

[David Rasberry]

Auto exposure, don't need and don't use. Auto focus is useful in run and gun doc shooting at times. Image stabilization likewise, can be useful for hand held work, maybe it will be a part of the fixed lens Scarlet. You can buy B4 ENG lenses with auto focus and image stabilization built in, so it is a matter if Red supports the function in the lens interfaces.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

Auto focus is a strong possibility in the 2/3" Scarlet system with it's fly by wire nature.
Past that, Auto gain and image stabilization I am doubtful of.

Personally I don't particularly care for any of them and would really use them except auto focus on rare occasions.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

AGC in post?

AGC in post?

Auto gain and image stabilization I am doubtful of.

Since "gain" is done in the RED ONE by recording metadata and later having the EI/ISO metadata adjust the gamma in the de-Bayer, you could record changing EI/ISO metadata for each frame and later have or not have the de-Bayer software adjust the mid tone brightness.

The gain would not be hardware, just in the Metadata. Since the Metadata comes from the histograms, you coud even do AGC in post with any R3D footage since it has more than 10bits.

 

[Ralph B.]

The fixed lens Scarlet will have auto features. You will also be able to shoot full manual. I don't know if image stabilization is on the menu, but you might be able to handle that in iMovie. The Red Mount Full Frame lenses will be Image Stabilized.

So even though Scarlet will be legitimately a digital cinema camera it can still compare to a "video camera" on price and some features.

Your point is a good one. Scarlet can bring unheard of level of quality to a price level that is approachable by serious enthusiast. In addition there are a great deal of times when you might want to capture high performance moving images when you can't set up a proper shoot with all the accoutrement and staff.

 

[David Rasberry]

Since "gain" is done in the RED ONE by recording metadata and later having the EI/ISO metadata adjust the gamma in the de-Bayer, you could record changing EI/ISO metadata for each frame and later have or not have the de-Bayer software adjust the mid tone brightness.

The gain would not be hardware, just in the Metadata. Since the Metadata comes from the histograms, you coud even do AGC in post with any R3D footage since it has more than 10bits.

You still have to get proper exposure on the sensor to have enough dynamic range in the metadata to work with. Auto-iris ENG lenses could perform this function, but it would need to be supported in the lens interface.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Does an Optical stabilized lens require camera input? I thought the OIS was independent of the camera.

 

[jbeale]

Does an Optical stabilized lens require camera input? I thought the OIS was independent of the camera.

Maybe there are some that do, although in all the (few) systems I'm aware of the stabilization is done in the lens (or the system takes input only from turn rate gyros that could be in the lens, though they're actually mounted elsewhere for design convenience).

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Auto iris C mount lenses...

Auto iris C mount lenses...

but it would need to be supported in the lens interface.

Some auto iris C mount lenses have a "video" input that they use in a feedback loop to control the iris, if the camera has a video out you could hook that to the lens.

 

[Chris Davis]

In addition there are a great deal of times when you might want to capture high performance moving images when you can't set up a proper shoot with all the accoutrement and staff.

I'm enjoying the dialogue on this post. Of course auto iris/ auto gain are set manually in a controlled/predictable lighting environment, but does anyone else here have use for auto iris/auto gain? What are some situations where it might come in handy?

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Auto Iris?

Auto Iris?

What are some situations where it might come in handy?

Auto gain in post would work for shots where clouds are moving over, probably.

Auto Iris would be required if you want into a dark building from outdoors in bright sun (or the other way around, or a inside a car shot going into or out of a tunnel). I would probably just have someone turn the iris ring on a shot like that, but if you did not have someone it might be an option to use auto iris?

 

[David Rasberry]

Maybe there are some that do, although in all the (few) systems I'm aware of the stabilization is done in the lens (or the system takes input only from turn rate gyros that could be in the lens, though they're actually mounted elsewhere for design convenience).

I think most lens OIS systems these days are servo driven and require power from the camera at least even if self contained otherwise. My Canon camcorder is like that. If you look into the lens when you turn the camera on you see the OIS system activate during bootup.

 

[Chris Davis]

Since "gain" is done in the RED ONE by recording metadata and later having the EI/ISO metadata adjust the gamma in the de-Bayer, you could record changing EI/ISO metadata for each frame and later have or not have the de-Bayer software adjust the mid tone brightness.

The gain would not be hardware, just in the Metadata. Since the Metadata comes from the histograms, you coud even do AGC in post with any R3D footage since it has more than 10bits.

You still have to get proper exposure on the sensor to have enough dynamic range in the metadata to work with. Auto-iris ENG lenses could perform this function, but it would need to be supported in the lens interface.

This seems to make a lot of sense -- record auto-gain to the metadata, and discard it if you don't like what the camera thought was appropriate gain in post. This would be much cheaper than auto-iris, but I see the limitations.

How many stops of over/underexposure can the RED One take?
Say I had enough light for ISO 100, but iris was set three stops too high. It would seem like auto-gain could "correct" for thee stops of underexposure to get to 800 (more if I don't mind some grain). But what about overexposure?

 

[Robert Altman]

As a video shooter (Sony V1) I NEVER use auto exposure--video signals are killed by overexposure, and the auto systems that I have seen don't respect this. I use the histogram to get the most picture info I can on tape, watching soas to not push gain up too far and add noise. In post I will expand my dynamic range, crushing blacks, etc. if the scene calls for it.

On the other hand, in the run and gun situations that I find myself shooting I do use auto focus. The V1 has a manual override in case the camera has picked the wrong item to focus on. With the small LCD screens (making visual HD focus assessment difficult) and the deep depth of field of small format video imagers this seems to work for me.

I do use the image stabilization when off sticks, and the Sony optical system seems to work very well. Obviously sticks/steadicam/dollies are better--but not always available in in a documentary/event format video shoot.

 

[David Rasberry]

We don't know what Scarlets expsoure index will be but the red 1 is rated at nominal 320 ISO for example. Practical exposure latitude for R1 from some chart tests posted here is about 5 stops, 1 to 1-1/2 stops over and about 4 stops under depending on lighting conditions without getting excessive highlight burnout or shadow noise.
An auto iris lens controls light exposure to the sensor, the closer you stay to the optimum 320 ISO exposure the more dynamic range you have to play with in post.
Gain can be manipulated in post with raw files, so you don't need to use that on the camera. This is a fundamental difference between normal video cameras and RAW digital cameras. With normal video formats you have to optimise gain and iris settings when you shoot, there is little range to deal with it in post.
But most of us find it better to establish correct exposure manually, auto exposure functions are mostly used as a convenience tool by TV news crews.
The problem with any auto exposure system is variations within a scene due to shifting average luminance from highlights and shadows as the camera moves. Catching an exterior window on a pan of an interior for example, the camera will adjust for the window and the interior goes dark. This is very difficult to compensate in post.
It is better to set a manual exposure for the scene that keeps the interior exposure constant even though exterior through the window is over exposed. You may compromise by underexposing the interior a stop or two to keep the exterior from total burnout, then adjust the average settings in post to get the look you want. This is one simple illustration. The true art of cinematography lies in how you deal with the compromises: control lighting levels, contrast ratios, and exposure to get the look you want. It can't always be fixed in post.

 

[David Rasberry]

As a video shooter (Sony V1) I NEVER use auto exposure--video signals are killed by overexposure, and the auto systems that I have seen don't respect this.

Boy is that ever true. I am usually under exposing my Canon by 1-2 stops compared to the auto setting

 

[Eki Halkka]

As a video shooter (Sony V1) I NEVER use auto exposure--video signals are killed by overexposure, and the auto systems that I have seen don't respect this.

In ENG style situations with broadcast zooms, i often quickly press the auto iris button, then manually nudge exposure half stop down. Usually this gives an acceptable compromise - and it's naturally very fast way to set up.

Surprisingly, the little HDV wonder home vid cam, canon HV20, usually gives a very decent exposure on auto when using cine mode gamma.