Will the FPS Change in A Future Update?

[McKay Olson]

Is this possible? Can the frame rate change for the Scarlet in the future, like go up to 300 fps, and update to a higher quality, like 120 fps at 2K? Is it possible? Thanks!

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

If frame rates increase too much on Scarlet what is the point of an Epic? I don't see this ever happening, however it appears RED will be trying to up the HDRx frame rates in order to make HDRx usable at 4k. They have stated that this upgrade would be free.

 

[Phil Holland]

This question is asked a lot.

The basic answer is that Scarlet X's hardware throughput is being pushed to the max, but Red is still tweaking and tuning the camera. It's been mentioned that Red is trying to implement a 4k 24fps mode with HDRx enabled already. Don't expect a major update within the next couple of months though. This is the type of thing that can be achieved through a firmware update.

As for future hardware updates, we don't know anything yet. We do know one hardware update is coming down the road. It's called "Dragon", but we don't know for sure what Dragon will do. This will cost Scarlet X and Epic users money to upgrade as it's replacing components within the camera. The advantage here is that you'll be able to upgrade your camera and retain value on your initial main body investment.

 

[Adam Beck]

This question is asked a lot.

The basic answer is that Scarlet X's hardware throughput is being pushed to the max, but Red is still tweaking and tuning the camera. It's been mentioned that Red is trying to implement a 4k 24fps mode with HDRx enabled already. Don't expect a major update within the next couple of months though. This is the type of thing that can be achieved through a firmware update.

As for future hardware updates, we don't know anything yet. We do know one hardware update is coming down the road. It's called "Dragon", but we don't know for sure what Dragon will do. This will cost Scarlet X and Epic users money to upgrade as it's replacing components within the camera. The advantage here is that you'll be able to upgrade your camera and retain value on your initial main body investment.

To add on to what Phil said, I believe the Scarlet upgrade to Dragron will cost more money than the Epic upgrade.

 

[John Allardice]

...Remember also, that this (potential) upgrade to HDRx speed is going to be made not so much by an increase in scarlets capabilities ( Jim, Jarred et al, have already stated it's completely topped out at what it can currently handle) but by a new compression scheme for the second stream of HDRx data, effectively lowering the data rate it needs to throughput for 24fps HDRx.

The Dragon upgrade will also be way more expensive for Scarlet than for epic owners, Jim said that to upgrade a scarlet will mean coring the little bugger out till there's essentially nothing left but the shell, and then replacing almost all of the internals.

 

[Stefan Antonescu]

Jim said that to upgrade a scarlet will mean coring the little bugger out till there's essentially nothing left but the shell, and then replacing almost all of the internals.

John, where did you read that, please ?

In that case, why bother upgrading the camera ? You might as well buy a new Scarlet "Dragon" body.

Doesn't make much sense to me...

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

...Remember also, that this (potential) upgrade to HDRx speed is going to be made not so much by an increase in scarlets capabilities ( Jim, Jarred et al, have already stated it's completely topped out at what it can currently handle) but by a new compression scheme for the second stream of HDRx data, effectively lowering the data rate it needs to throughput for 24fps HDRx.

The Dragon upgrade will also be way more expensive for Scarlet than for epic owners, Jim said that to upgrade a scarlet will mean coring the little bugger out till there's essentially nothing left but the shell, and then replacing almost all of the internals.

Basically shoot the brains out of the... well ya' - the brain

 

[Josh Negrin]

At the Scarlet announcement event (I was there), they did say they were working on hdrx for 4k 24fps. It seems like 24fps at 5k and 48fps is probable if not inevitable, then yes?

 

[John Allardice]

John, where did you read that, please ?

Jim said it at the Nov 3rd event, now he was speaking off the cuff in response to a question from the audience. It didnt seem to be a subject he'd given much thought to... Remember, Scarlet in it's current incarnation was only several day old at that point. He actually seemed to have the same opinion that you do...in that you'd be replacing so much of the scarlet why bother?
Given that this is Red however, plans might have changed considerably since that point

 

[Yoav Yerushalmi]

At the Scarlet announcement event (I was there), they did say they were working on hdrx for 4k 24fps. It seems like 24fps at 5k and 48fps is probable if not inevitable, then yes?

Well, since we're in a completely theoretical guessing game (you brought it up!). The indication was that this will be done by changing how HDRx works. I think it was called "a different compression". So this might be done by having the HDRx frames only contain a lower resolution image, or maybe just containing the sensor data for the area that is near clipping in the main image.. or I dunno.. Some way of not having to output double the data of non-hdrx. -- so you can't just assume you can double the framerate right back...

 

[Tyson Perkins]

I would say they will most definitely be upping the frame rates with the Dragon update. However, the question is when the Dragon update will be, how much it will cost and how much exactly they will push the rates. This is to say that there is little use in thinking about that right now - only that Red will take care of your investment, but it could be a long time coming. If you have a project upcoming that needs a majority of high frame rate shots, don't buy a Scarlet - rent an Epic. Otherwise, if high fps is not a recurring requisite to your work then buy the Scarlet now and get the shots you need with a Phantom or an Epic when necessary.

 

[Dmitry Burenok]

I'd rather think about potential logic board upgrade to get faster GPU unit. Should be even easier than replacing sensor. In case of having Scarlett 24FPS 5K full frame - will worth every penny.

 

[Richard Goodwin]

At the Nov event Jim also said they way they were able to make Scarlet an Epic with a lower data rate was because they discovered that Sensors fabricated for EPIC but not meeting the Quality Control EPIC required could be re-purposed for Scarlet. (Generally in complex chip fabrication a certain percentage of the total fabrication simply does not meet the target - its one reason higher end CPUs for computers are so expensive). Because they are the SAME sensors in EPIC but of slightly lesser abilities I would venture to guess they cannot turn out 5K without data errors.

Add to that the very nice but lower cost support electronics of Scarlet and I think it is unlikely they can get much, if any higher than 4K. It was also said that even just before the event that Scarlet was going to be QuadHD until they discovered a way to get it to 4K. But, that they were pushing the camera to the limits to give us the nice gift of 4K as it is.

Now, it's clear that the Engineers at RED are pretty darn tricky. But based on already being close to the limits I think we may see some improvements but not giant leaps. In addition RED (in my mind rightly) sees they path to the next big leap in Dragon and so is focusing on that.

 

[Pascal Payant]

they will never touch the 5k zone cause it will kill the epic. they will only play with the 4k and lower. maybe 24frame HDR and that,s it. the rest will be maybe 60fps for 3k and other other for lower but that's it. the other camera is 60k the other is 14k. it need to have it's limit. people just want more and more stop wanting and just go shoot and be creative with what you got.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

We don't really know the 'trade-off' in the architecture of Scarlets (and rightly so, I guess). Would 24p@5k be possible? I'm going to suggest possibly not. As much as I want it (even if 24p was the only frame rate availible for 5k), I would imagine the issue is capturing 5k, irrespective of compression, is beyond the capability of the sensor. I don't think they care about 24p@5k encroaching on Epic territory, because for any Epic user to feel slightly threatned, then Scarlet would have to start churning out much higher frame rates.
Jim has already said that the hardware can sustain so much, but who knows what they can do with the firmware - what is for certain is that you buy the camera in front of you, not what it could potentially become

 

[Niko Pueringer]

I would like to see a 1.5k at 90-something fps. That seems much more realistic.

 

[Dmitry Burenok]

I don't think that upgrading Scarlet somehow to 5K24FPS will kill EPIC - because of insanely fast 120FPS EPIC already have at full frame! More than 5 times faster - this is could be a reason to understand huge price difference.

 

[Stephen Wheeler]

24fps in 5k and 24fps with hdrx in 4K would be awesome and possibly achievable. My worry for those is that they will have to use such a high compression ratio the the image quality would be less then ideal but who knows.

I think that it is unrealistic to expect a firmware solution to get real high frame rates. The main thing in my understanding of digital camera design that limits frame rated is the max data rate the hardware of a camera system can handle.

 

[D Fuller]

If I were to make a guess, I'd guess that the Scarlet's frame rates are constrained by the bandwidth of the architecture downstream of the sensor and it's processor. The system was designed originally for the 3k data stream of the 2/3 sensor. Unless they ditched that as well as the processor block and its boards, 5K and higher frame fates would bump up, against the system's throughput capacity.

Of course, I have no idea what's inside the Scarlet, so take this for what it's worth. (not much, really).

 

[Yoav Yerushalmi]

The system was designed originally for the 3k data stream of the 2/3 sensor. Unless they ditched that as well as the processor block and its boards, 5K and higher frame fates would bump up, against the system's throughput capacity.

Actually, the system was designed for the 5K framerate of the epic-X. However, as is the case with most chip manufacturing, some chips fail to work correctly at full clock speed. So instead of throwing away those chips, they instead use them, but label the camera a 'scarlet', and run the chips at half speed (where they do pass the tests). The 2/3 sensor scarlet is not this scarlet.

So, it *may* be possible to overclock those chips, but that would require someone hack the firmware AND software, and it would probably lead to a LOT of errors. I don't see this happening... maybe they can be clocked a "little higher" so that we can get a full 4K at 30 fps... but I don't see them pushing it much higher...