Wildlife feature in Africa - 3K, and other questions

[Steve Gibby]

It will be interesting to see how 2/3" 3k with good 16mm/B4 glass compares with 3k cropped S35 with 35mm glass.

Yes, that's what I've been saying. I think wisdom dictates that we reserve judgment on what lenses work well on a 2/3" Scarlet until we have on in our hands and experiment with lenses on it. Even then, the end use of the footage will be a variable. For theatrical use the "look" requirements will be high, but for HDTV and disk use of the footage, we should have more flexibility.

As you know, there is no universal "right lens" for cameras like RED, Scarlet, and Epic - just the "right lens" for each production or portions thereof. Also, we have no idea what magic RED has in store for us inside Scarlet...

The producer in me thinks: I like tech specs, but to me it is trumped by real world performance of a lens on a camera and how/where it can be used to keep the audience and distribution outlets happy - without killing the project budget.

 

[mike holding]

I think the point I was trying to get to originally was this - the project is not an HD finish - if it was, I would have no hesitation in going forward with a traditional HD camera, using 2/3 " lenses like the HJ40 and HJ18 which, along with the almost indestructible Varicam, are tried and trusted tools that give great results for an HD project like Planet Earth, and I might add, looked pretty respectable when printed back to 35mm for Disneys "Earth" feature release. Rather this is a film finish for the cinema screen, so for a 2K DI/Film out, I'd like to shoot in 3K or 4K res. That means 35mm lens sets, and shooting 3K for 60fps and 4K for wides and aerials. I was looking for "real world" lens solutions pertinent to a wildlife filmmaking application, using affordable cameras that have been tried and tested in the field.

 

[mike holding]

Getting back to long zoom lenses, has anyone shot a comparative test between the Angenieux 25-250 HR/HD and the 24-290 at 3K or 4K res? I'd be interested to know how the 25-250 holds up against the newer lens (for this application of course )

 

[Steve Gibby]

Getting back to long zoom lenses, has anyone shot a comparative test between the Angenieux 25-250 HR/HD and the 24-290 at 3K or 4K res? I'd be interested to know how the 25-250 holds up against the newer lens (for this application of course )

Here's a real-world comparative test between those two lenses Mike - rather than a shootout of charts or comparative lp/mm speculation:

Two months ago, on the 10 RED camera production of the classic rock band Journey in concert in Manila, Philippines, I served as a DP and one of the shoulder held cinematographers in front of the stage. For the four long lens REDs on sticks and the dolly camera we used three Angenieux 24-290, and two Angenieux 25-250. For the Steadcam, 40' jib, and all three shoulder held (on ET Mantis units) cameras we used Nikon zooms. All footage was shot in 4k HD, 29.97, Redcode 36, at 1/120th second.

The footage from all ten REDs, with that mix of cine lenses and 35mm stills lenses, is being edited as we speak for a world release Blu Ray, DVD, and eventually HDTV release. The footage from all those cameras is cutting together extremely well. There is no big difference between the "look" of the two different lens type footage. After color correction they are intercutting pretty much seamlessly - $75K cine lenses with $1,500 Nikon lenses. Those who doubt that are welcome to buy the Blu Ray and see for themselves. Is the 25-250 as crisp and good a lens as a 24-290? No. Will well-shot footage from the two cut together well? Yes. Are the top-end Nikon (or other 35mm stills lenses) as crisp and good a lens as the 24-290? Some well shot 35mm stills footage on RED can look as crisp as that of the 24-290, and the rest of it can look close - easily close enough to intercut between the two. As a DP on that production there's no way I was going to recommend all cine lenses to the producer, and in the process spend a lot more of his money - just so we could brag about using all "proper" cine lenses. Heck no! Plus we knew that all cameras would be eye focused. Me and the other DP (Champe Barton) kept open minds, analyzed the project lens needs in terms of format coverage (4k), focal lengths, mobility, optical results, and lensed each camera accordingly. And in the process saved the producer a ton of money, while also exceeding the final production values we wanted.

On the Alaska wildlife Nat Geo documentary I worked on and referenced in my previous post, the footage from the various camera and lens types cut together just fine - RED-shot Arri 8R and RED 18-50 for underwater (4k), RED-shot Canon 150-600 for some land shots (4k), F900R-shot high end Fujinon B4 2/3" footage, and HDC1500-shot high end Fujinon B4 2/3" footage. That's 35mm stills (RED), B4 2/3" HD (shot on 2/3" cameras), and cine lens (RED), all cutting together quite well after color correction. We simply used the right tools for each portion of the project...

That's two good, current, and high end project examples Mike...

The people who are constantly crowing about the optical superiority of their cine lenses are usually trying to protect a capital investment they have made in them, are too narrow minded to bring themselves to "stoop" to using a 35mm stills lens, work in straight cine environments where using 35mm stills lenses isn't an option, don't know how to shoot without the security blanket of five or six people helping them, and/or just never learned to eye focus a camera hybrid and EFP style - so they take shots at other's choices and needs just to justify their own needs or choices. Yes, high end cine lenses are optically wonderful, but they're also overpriced, huge and immobile, and require a lot of bulky and expensive accessories to operate. Conversely the top level 35mm stills lenses are probably 95% as good optically as the top cine lenses, much less expensive, smaller and more mobile, don't require expensive accessories to function (MB, FF, drop in filters, etc.), are simple for an experienced hybrid or EFP shooter to eye focus, are very kind to your project budget, and will get you an end product image that is very close to that of the high-end cine lenses. I also notice that the top-end 35mm stills lenses are usually left out of the optical bench test "shootouts" - those tests are conveniently limited to proper cine lenses. . Got some turf to protect boys? But in many real world projects, well shot 35mm stills footage on RED can and does intercut amazingly well with the top-end cine lens footage. While some people in this industry seem to endlessly pontificate and quibble over camera and lens tech specs - many others are out here with open minds actively experimenting and discovering some surprising results. I thinks its very good to pay close attention to camera and lens tech specs - but not at the expense of closing our minds to real world experimentation and the possibility of disproving some myths we may have believed in.

As for B4 2/3" HD lenses versus 35mm stills lenses on a 2/3" Scarlet - all the data and extrapolation in the world isn't going to produce definitive real-world production conclusions. That can only be reached by real world shooting with various lens types on the camera. Nobody has done that yet, but just as I have as an early adopter of RED One, you can bet I'll be experimenting with all lens types when I receive one of the very first Scarlet cameras.

Mike, I think you're definitely on the right track with your lens and format choices for your feature - and as well as you shoot, I really expect it to be a stellar production. The quality of your previous work speaks for itself as being top-drawer...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

So Scarlet 2/3" + HJ40X is the dream setup, huh?

Yep. :devil:

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Here's a real-world comparative test between those two lenses Mike - rather than a shootout of charts or comparative lp/mm speculation:....

The people who are constantly crowing about the optical superiority of their cine lenses are usually trying to protect a capital investment they have made in them, are too narrow minded to bring themselves to "stoop" to using a 35mm stills lens, work in straight cine environments where using 35mm stills lenses isn't an option, don't know how to shoot without the security blanket of five or six people helping them, and/or just never learned to eye focus a camera hybrid and EFP style - so they take shots at other's choices and needs just to justify their own needs or choices.

You still don't seem to get the point of my post, Steve :Yawn:

 

[Steve Gibby]

:mad2: ... Yup, I do...

This Scarlet 2/3" lens use results is presently all just moot talk...

I'll be receiving some of the first Scarlet and Epic cameras, and I'll naturally be more than happy to test out a myriad of lens types on the 2/3" Scarlet - and share those results here on RED user - just as I've done with RED One.

I have no grudge toward you Pawel. You seem to have some excellent tech knowledge of lenses. You also own some pretty amazing lenses - the Master Primes. That's cool...

Have fun shooting. No worries Mate!

Peace...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Cheers, Steve. I'll be very interested in your results.

BTW, I did recently use MPs for a very remote wildlife shoot. It was a nightmare compared to a traditional 2/3" HD ENG/EFP zoom lens that I am used to. The shooting ratio went out the window. So, I do agree with some of your comments.

Good shooting

 

[mike holding]

Here's a real-world comparative test between those two lenses Mike - rather than a shootout of charts or comparative lp/mm speculation:

Steve, thanks for this comprehensive feedback - this is what its all about for me - real world results, happy producer and editor and colorist, not a chart in sight!

The question regarding the two Angeniuex lenses is obviously a budget-related one - if the older 25-250 HR produces good results, then the budget can afford a wider array of lenses, or more drives, or whatever is needed - which makes us more versatile in the field.

By the way, I'm interested as to why you shoot 1/120th sec - I am so used to shooting 1/48th to emulate a "film look" - am I missing something obvious?

It seems from what I have read on these forums that changing back and forth to the Nikon mount, while not complicated, is probably not a sensible field option for us, and that I should try to lens the cameras with PL mount kit. What are the Canon mount options?

I have a nice Super16 Canon (in PL), 11.5 - 165 - do you happen to know if this will cover the 3K window, or only the 2K option?

I will put together a final "wish list" on the kit and PM for your opinion/advice, if I may?

The last question is this - can anyone point me in the right direction with regard to sources for good second-hand cine lenses, and also Nikon lenses? There are dozens of websites of course, (no way I'm buying of eBay) but its hard for me to know who is reputable. There is little available here in the wilds of Africa!

 

[mike holding]

Oh, and thanks for the compliment Steve.

Lively discussion is definitely healthy, but I'm glad to see you and Pawel made peace! :thumbsup: - I was getting a bit nervous there! :couch:

 

[Tom Lowe]

mike, i see on your website that you managed to capture a still of pawel and steve in action:

haha just kidding guys! :thumbsup:

when are you hoping to start shooting? you're already in Botswana, or is that your base of operations?

 

[Steve Gibby]

By the way, I'm interested as to why you shoot 1/120th sec - I am so used to shooting 1/48th to emulate a "film look" - am I missing something obvious?

It seems from what I have read on these forums that changing back and forth to the Nikon mount, while not complicated, is probably not a sensible field option for us, and that I should try to lens the cameras with PL mount kit. What are the Canon mount options?

I have a nice Super16 Canon (in PL), 11.5 - 165 - do you happen to know if this will cover the 3K window, or only the 2K option?

I will put together a final "wish list" on the kit and PM for your opinion/advice, if I may?

The last question is this - can anyone point me in the right direction with regard to sources for good second-hand cine lenses, and also Nikon lenses? There are dozens of websites of course, (no way I'm buying of eBay) but its hard for me to know who is reputable. There is little available here in the wilds of Africa!

I sometimes shoot 23.98 at 1/48th sec for an HDTV finish – when the subject matter is relatively stationary – beauty B-roll and 2nd unit footage. But when there is any kind of rapid motion in the subject matter I usually shoot 29.97 at 120th sec. The reason for that is I’m not a big fan of 24p judder in fast motion subjects. The additional frames of 29.97, and getting above a 180-degree shutter somewhat (1/120th sec) makes for a smooth presentation of fast subjects. If the footage is well lit and well shot, it still looks very filmic – but smooth. I shoot a lot of fast running animals, fast moving sports objects and people, and a lot of aerials. For all those we use a ton of slow motion playbacks. If I’m shooting 3k of those subjects with RED it is usually at a 23.98 project frame rate, 48 fps in Varispeed for a 50% slo-mo, and a shutter speed of 120. Those parameters have given us the smoothest slow motion in post. When shooting 2k with RED for slo-mos, I use a project frame rate of 23.98, Varispeed overcrank of 120 fps, and a shutter speed of 1/196th. The slo-mos are glass smooth using that combo.

With practice you can change from PL to Nikon mount on RED in about 5 minutes. Back focus on RED One is via a twisting collar behind the mount. I mark on the collar where BF is for both PL and Nikon, thus saving me from having to BF the camera after every mount change. In reality, though, obviously you want to be sure you don’t have a bunch of dust flying around when you change mounts – a hindrince to changing mounts out in the bush.

Looking forward, RED has said they intend to make the mounts changeable on Epic and Scarlet by four bolts – a procedure they say will take about a minute. Then BF is adjusted quickly by tweaking movable sensor block. They have said they plan to make RED, PL, Canon, and Nikon mounts for those cameras. All things with RED are subject to change – so we’ll see how that comes out.

The only Canon mount option for RED One is the Birger mount – a smart mount that controls Canon lenses.

Your Super16 lens will not cover 3k. It will cover 2k.

For used cine lenses Duclos Lenses in the L.A. area is quite good. So is Focus Optics, again in the L.A. area. Both those are also excellent for cine lens servicing. I’m sure there are also other good cine lens places you can find.

For used Nikon lenses I’ve had very good luck with B&H Photo in New York. I own 21 Nikon lenses that I use on RED One – with excellent results!

Cheers

 

[Steve Gibby]

Lively discussion is definitely healthy, but I'm glad to see you and Pawel made peace! :thumbsup: - I was getting a bit nervous there! :couch:

That's really how a tech forum like this should function though - healthy debate and and exchange of ideas and experiences.

As you know as a veteran of this industry, everyone figures out what works for them and goes with it. With media convergence, and especially the cross-genre, and multi-style nature of RED one, people arrive here with a wide diversity of backgrounds, applications, and aspirations. That naturally fosters discussion and disputes. With Epic and Scarlet being able to be used in three main industries - cine, EFP, stills - there will be an even wider divergence of opinions in how to "correctly" lens and use the cameras.

But from all of the debates people get new ideas, share concepts, and in the process most of us are enriched.

Its all good...

 

[Denis Buhot]

Definitely so... and various questions

Definitely so... and various questions

But when there is any kind of rapid motion in the subject matter I usually shoot 29.97 at 120th sec.

I agree with Steve, and I'm grateful to him for that piece of advice myself ! However, the judder effect should be greatly reduced with proper monitoring/broadcasting. Am I wrong?

BTW, Steve, still sticking to later versions of build 16, I won't get 30fps at 4K unless I quit redcode 36. I think no available build permits that, anyway. Any input about the way the two redcodes will mix together ?

As many of us I guess, I sometimes make extensive use of the prerecord function. I noticed that any reel including many shots of that kind and the high number of clips associated with each shot will make my redcine freeze (and my computer as well). Any user of redcine here ?

 

[mike holding]

Tom, glad you spotted that picture...

Dammit! - that was just the warmup! - I missed the real action because I was busy checking my lens l/mm on one of those fancy charts!:sifone:

Oh and by the way, while we are on this real high tech stuff, how do I get a "quote" to appear in a neat little red box like you guys do?
Don't want to look like a techno-pygmy.....:embarassed:


Yes, Botswana is home - I live in a tent....

 

[Tom Lowe]

Yes, Botswana is home - I live in a tent....

:yikes:

You're kidding, right?

To get quotes, hit the "Go Advanced" tab in the reply box, then highlight what you want to quote. Then hit the little button above the replay box that looks like a dialog bubble. Or just hit "Quote" on the person you want to quote's post.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

mike, i see on your website that you managed to capture a still of pawel and steve in action:

hahaha, that's the one. :rofl:

 

[mike holding]

You're kidding, right?

No Tom, not kidding...
The first pic is home for 9 months of the year....
The second is the view from my living room ...
The third is me driving to work...

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

No Tom, not kidding...
The first pic is home for 9 months of the year....
The second is the view from my living room ...
The third is me driving to work...

Wow, what a place!!!

"Life is either a great adventure or nothing" - Helen Keller

 

[Tom Lowe]

No Tom, not kidding...
The first pic is home for 9 months of the year....
The second is the view from my living room ...
The third is me driving to work...

OMG, dude, you are hardcore!! :thumbup: Living the dream. So cool.