Why would I Upgrade Epic-W in light of DSMC2 Unified?

[RyanFrancis]

So the names Epic and Weapon are gone.

Why would I upgrade my Epic-W to Weapon (which doesn't really exist). It's just a slightly faster processor and slightly better frame/data rates.
Am I missing something?

 

[Ari Morales]

I would think it is because they will continue to develop sensors and technology based off of the weapon (or unified DSMC2, as they might call it) boards, and they will most likely not do that for the Epic-W/DSMC2 Dragon lineup boards and processors. This gets you into a unified platform that allows for upgrades in the future.

 

[Chris Jordan]

I would think it is because they will continue to develop sensors and technology based off of the weapon (or unified DSMC2, as they might call it) boards, and they will most likely not do that for the Epic-W/DSMC2 Dragon lineup boards and processors. This gets you into a unified platform that allows for upgrades in the future.

So your response is for hypothetical situations... Not reality.

Dude: EW owners who were ever thinking of selling the camera are hosed. $5k for frame rate is silly. $5k for low light but less res is silly. All while the value of the camera (which matters to half of us, but not all) gets ganked. If you decide to upgrade to Weapon, when you go to sell it, it' still only worth 20k used (since it's $25k new) Hosed.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Hah what? You're complaining that they have a $5k upgrade to turn your $20-30k camera into one that was $50k yesterday?

Gemini is looking great to me and at the price it's impressive. It's not just low light and less resolution....

That said I'm wishing I sold my epic-w helium to the guy that offered $19.5k last week...

Epic-w helium was only $20k new for lots of people (me included) selling it a year later for a small loss or paying $5k to upgrade it to a camera that would be $25k new sure seems like a solid deal to me... Basically no depreciation at all in that case. Still curious what epic-w sale prices will be now, they have affordable options to go to dsmc2 and gemini so might still be a good sell around $18k with low hours. That's pretty low depreciation for most cameras.

 

[Matt Bai]

So the names Epic and Weapon are gone.

Why would I upgrade my Epic-W to Weapon (which doesn't really exist). It's just a slightly faster processor and slightly better frame/data rates.
Am I missing something?

Yes, you're missing something.

 

[Kevin Wild]

Yes, you're missing something.

Um, that wasn't very helpful.

RyanFrancis-I am in the same boat. It seems to me (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong), that you are right about the physical changes. I think to us with Epic-W Helium sensors, the biggest benefit to upgrading is that we're back in line with the upgrade program for sensor swaps. I have not yet heard any other major change I'd see if I turned in my 6 month old Epic W Helium and got the upgrade. That said, keeping in line with RED's upgrade programs are important...and worth something. For us, these cameras are WAY too new to send back already and upgrade. We will probably wait a while...

 

[RyanFrancis]

Um, that wasn't very helpful.

RyanFrancis-I am in the same boat. It seems to me (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong), that you are right about the physical changes. I think to us with Epic-W Helium sensors, the biggest benefit to upgrading is that we're back in line with the upgrade program for sensor swaps. I have not yet heard any other major change I'd see if I turned in my 6 month old Epic W Helium and got the upgrade. That said, keeping in line with RED's upgrade programs are important...and worth something. For us, these cameras are WAY too new to send back already and upgrade. We will probably wait a while...

Kevin-Totally makes sense. The biggest thing in my mind to upgrade is for the easier/cheaper upgrade path.

I'm on the fence wondering if the timing/cost makes sense to upgrade this round and stay with the newest line of equipment or not. It looks like there's still an upgrade path for 6k Dragon to 5k Gemini (which is actually a downgrade in rez), so it seems like the next round should still have an upgrade path for the Epic-W right??

 

[Kevin Wild]

I'm not really sure about that. I know somewhere Brent mentioned that this upgrade opportunity will last for "months, probably not years." So you may have time to wait a bit before jumping into the upgrade option. The good thing is RED is good about communicating that the window is closing. That's why we upgraded our Epics to Epic-W Heliums in September...since they warned everyone that that upgrade path was coming to a dead end. Good luck, RyanFrancis!

 

[Adam Brian Dada]

How soon after they warned that they were closing the upgrade window did the actual closure happen? I've only been lurking on these forums (not registered user) since November or maybe October.

 

[Luca Volpe]

I am going to update from my Epic W to EPIC W "Weapon body" as there are many things to consider:
1. It has a top class body and features which otherwise will cost a LOT more.
2. I went from SW to EW when it was a good deal to move, so not really paid much at the end.
3. In case we want to seel the new body we are not going to lose a lot of money, when instead if we sell now the EW we are going to lose quite a bit...
4. I am sure that getting this path we are going to get some LOVE for future update to DSMC3 bodies in 2 years...
5. I suppose we get an extension of warranty too (mine has still one year left)



P.S. HOPEFULLY this also brings a solution for the Time and Date battery drain problem...I WILL PAY HIS MONEY ONLY FOR THAT!!!
And also, now having this new beta tester group I am sure the firmware will be a lot more stable...so all good for RED!

 

[paulcurtis]

I am going to update from my Epic W to EPIC W "Weapon body" as there are many things to consider:
1. It has a top class body and features which otherwise will cost a LOT more.
!

Isn't this a board swap meaning that the physical body will be the same one going in?

I posted in the main thread but what i'd like to know are operational differences with a faster board - so is the UI faster, is the sensor read out speed faster, is the audio the same - that kind of thing. There was always a *massive* difference between Epic-W and Weapon before, something which the boost in frame rates didn't really seem to justify so i am wondering if there are other operational differences too

cheers
Paul

 

[Luca Volpe]

It is a new body, with new boards. You get the weapon class boards so it mean faster like
Up to 300 MB/s using RED MINI-MAG (480GB & 960GB)
Up to 225 MB/s using RED MINI-MAG (120GB & 240GB)

Then 8k in 60FPS (which for me is HUGE!)
and I am sure the overall performances should be faster

 

[paulcurtis]

It is a new body, with new boards. You get the weapon class boards so it mean faster like

Where did you see about a whole new body?

Just curious as i'm pretty sure i read it as a board swap internally!

cheers
Paul

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

I would like to keep my old body lol, it has some battle scars! The 8k white paint has completely rubbed off

steve

 

[Curtis boggs]

Baked in color for 4k prores would make it worth while !!!!

Curtis

 

[Luca Volpe]

So I have the confirmation that they will change only the boards inside so we keep our body lol
About the backed 4k prores I hope....

 

[Sergio Perez]

Those Extra fps you get with the extra 5K- which by the way was extra 30K before this happening- just makes your camera future proof for all content that will be made, for broadcast, film or whatever platform, at least for the next 5 to 8 years. 60P 8K content will be the next thing coming during the 2020 Olympics in Japan. At that time all displays and other stuff will be pushing 8K everywhere. And 30fps won't cut it.

Its one heck of a deal. In fact I would skip Gemini. I own a Helium and its low light is plenty good enough. You~re getting what I had to get a 5 year loan for, in a lot less. I would jump for it eyes shut!

 

[paulcurtis]

So I have the confirmation that they will change only the boards inside so we keep our body lol
About the backed 4k prores I hope....

Maybe the side module too, getting rid of the Epic-W branding.

The extra year warranty is a great plus (maybe 2 years but can't quite work that out yet)

Personally not fussed about 4K ProRes.

More focused on UI responsiveness (boot times?) and whether the sensor readout is faster because of faster boards...

cheers
Paul

 

[Robert Gustafsson]

It is a new body, with new boards. You get the weapon class boards so it mean faster like
Up to 300 MB/s using RED MINI-MAG (480GB & 960GB)
Up to 225 MB/s using RED MINI-MAG (120GB & 240GB)

Then 8k in 60FPS (which for me is HUGE!)
and I am sure the overall performances should be faster

No new body, check the answer I got at post #495...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?167896-DSMC2-Unified&p=1807146#post1807146

Do we keep the old Epic-W body with new internals, new engraving and new coin? (similar to the Epic MX to Epic Dragon upgrade but without the sensor swap and new boards/faster data rates instead)
Brent: Bingo.

 

[Josh Becker]

I am going to update from my Epic W to EPIC W "Weapon body" as there are many things to consider:
1. It has a top class body and features which otherwise will cost a LOT more.
2. I went from SW to EW when it was a good deal to move, so not really paid much at the end.
3. In case we want to seel the new body we are not going to lose a lot of money, when instead if we sell now the EW we are going to lose quite a bit...
4. I am sure that getting this path we are going to get some LOVE for future update to DSMC3 bodies in 2 years...
5. I suppose we get an extension of warranty too (mine has still one year left)



P.S. HOPEFULLY this also brings a solution for the Time and Date battery drain problem...I WILL PAY HIS MONEY ONLY FOR THAT!!!
And also, now having this new beta tester group I am sure the firmware will be a lot more stable...so all good for RED!

For point #1, I don't think you can really consider them "features with otherwise will cost a LOT more"... because that camera is now $25k. It's no longer a $50k camera, so it's not a $5k upgrade to their $50k camera.

Hah what? You're complaining that they have a $5k upgrade to turn your $20-30k camera into one that was $50k yesterday?

Gemini is looking great to me and at the price it's impressive. It's not just low light and less resolution....

That said I'm wishing I sold my epic-w helium to the guy that offered $19.5k last week...

Epic-w helium was only $20k new for lots of people (me included) selling it a year later for a small loss or paying $5k to upgrade it to a camera that would be $25k new sure seems like a solid deal to me... Basically no depreciation at all in that case. Still curious what epic-w sale prices will be now, they have affordable options to go to dsmc2 and gemini so might still be a good sell around $18k with low hours. That's pretty low depreciation for most cameras.

The fact that you're wishing you sold your Epic-W means you feel like you're in a worse position today than you were a couple days ago. And I think that kind of touches to the heart of Ryan's post.

EDIT: I also want to point out that I, too, got the Epic-W discount, so the $5k upgrade would mean that I got to use an Epic-W for a year and half and then simply "pay the difference" for the new Helium brain. I gotta say that it's a pretty compelling offer and is giving 100% value to what I paid. The deal takes a small hit going to Gemini, oh well, overall I mostly just feel for the Weapon Helium and CF guys. And I'm kind of confused that RED re-opened upgrades for Epic Dragons after threatening that the last upgrade path was the last. It's exactly that kind of inconsistency that makes people worried, you never know what RED is going to do or what will develop down the road. They seem to find a way to make it right, and it sounds like they are doing that for the CF and Weapon Helium guys...