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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why to not like RED...

Jannard said:
There are lots of reasons why not to like RED. And there are plenty of RED-haters out there.

1. We are not the establishment. Quite the contrary.

2. We talk too much about "what we might do, what we are going to do, or what we are thinking about". Then we change our minds. Several times.

3. You have to upgrade firmware too much. We keep enabling features and improving performance. While this is often a good thing, it forces our customers to pay attention.

4. We are in a constant state of back order. You see it, you want it... you have to wait for it.

5. There isn't enough info available. RED is short on written support, manuals and training tools.

6. While there is no question that RED is pushing the industry along (and has for the past 5 years)... RED "over-markets". Like 4K. Like RAW. Like everything...

7. RED is always late. This could actually be #1. RED says October. By the time it is done it is June two years later. Valid complaint.

It is easy to see why RED has polarized the industry. We are the good news and the bad news. We are pushing the envelop and at the same time we have no idea what we are doing... actually we are just beginning to figure out what we are doing. If someone else is thinking 10, RED is thinking 500. 500 has lots of problems because no one has ever been there before. Getting to 500 is difficult... way more difficult than anyone might imagine. That's why the other guys don't shoot for 500. We do. Silly us.

If there is anything good about RED... it is the core belief that 1080P (or 2K) is not a reasonable replacement for film. We started our business based on this belief. Finally, it seems like others have finally agreed. No matter what happens going forward, our success and legacy will be based on this simple thought. 1080P is not good enough. 4K delivery is.

We know we are the black sheep of the industry. Oh well. When all is said and done, RED will have moved the industry to a better place.

Now... we are not done. We fully expect to be disruptive going forward. We are just getting started. We are building a library of knowledge that we can leverage for the future. But we have lots of things to improve on. If other companies can keep pace, God love them.

Expect us to surprise you. When we stop doing that, we have no right to be under consideration.

Until then... stay tuned. We have a lot more coming.... lots of big surprises.

Jim
Click to expand...



I humbly second you on #5. I never had a piece of equipment where information was so free flowing and easily accessible.
 
Given all the flak I've gotten using RED on a few jobs- mostly from certain crew members- I'd say the biggest reason not to like RED is not the lateness of delivery and constant backorders.

It is DISRUPTION.

Change is hard. Hollywood's done things one way for a long time. All of a sudden we have a camera that's relatively affordable and shoots pictures that rival film. Maybe better, another argument. But a lotta the guys who came up through the ranks of Hollywood fucking hate how RED has stepped in and disrupted their party. Even the grip holding me on some steadicam shots off a truck last week gave me a bit of RED hating.

Obviously, Hollywood has also massively embraced RED. It depends on who you talk to. But it's interesting how the thing that pisses the naysayers off is the thing that, to me, makes RED great.
 
Jannard said:
There are lots of reasons why not to like RED. And there are plenty of RED-haters out there.

1. We are not the establishment. Quite the contrary.

2. We talk too much about "what we might do, what we are going to do, or what we are thinking about". Then we change our minds. Several times.

3. You have to upgrade firmware too much. We keep enabling features and improving performance. While this is often a good thing, it forces our customers to pay attention.

4. We are in a constant state of back order. You see it, you want it... you have to wait for it.

5. There isn't enough info available. RED is short on written support, manuals and training tools.

6. While there is no question that RED is pushing the industry along (and has for the past 5 years)... RED "over-markets". Like 4K. Like RAW. Like everything...

7. RED is always late. This could actually be #1. RED says October. By the time it is done it is June two years later. Valid complaint.


Jim
Click to expand...

LOL some crazy posting today Jim..

In fairness perhaps it would be helpful to think about doing something about point 5.. I don't mean old fashioned manuals, but when products get more locked down and when corresponding workflows become more established it might be an idea to have a unique place on REDUser or RED.com where people can come and how best to work with the technology and exactly what RED's products can and can't do. Even if you drop in here a lot, you do find yourself racking your brains to remember which thread contained a good workflow, or key piece of product info..
 
I tend to think of RED as a media lab which sells stuff, that's one of the reasons that I'm such a fan and don't get bent out of shape by delays - at least, not TOO often! :blush: Bending the future takes time.

Granted, the fact that I've been able to shoot with RED ONE since 3-16-2008 has helped with the waiting. Climbing on board the RED rocketship and shooting through the RED wormhole straight into the future was a lucky and smart move. Has it really been only four years?

Geez, I've learned a lot since then, packed a lot into my puny little brain.

I can't even begin to imagine what the learning curve has been like for Jim and Jarred.
 
Josh Beadle said:
Specs is for geeks - RED is for the soul
Click to expand...
Problem is, until you can develop cachet for your product based on a proven track record of quality and reliability (which Red has been doing for the past several years), you sort of have to rely on specs and/or price to sell your product, as in "I've been using company A's widgets for many years, so tell me in precise terms why I should start using yours." Because Canon has been making lenses and prosumer video cameras but has no track record with digital cinema cameras or even midlevel ENG cameras, it has to compete on specs. So Red wisely will respond in kind. If what I've read about the rumored Canon 4K camera(s) is true (e.g., $15K for Canon's 50-Mbps 8-bit 4:2:2 MXF format), Red would win the fight even if it didn't show up.
 
Canon has a long history of being the last of the biggies to arrive to the innovation party - they typically see what the other guys are doing and try to add a tweak and charge a little extra for the tweak (e.g. interchangeable lens mounts for the XL2 + true 16:9, or higher data rates for their more recent XF100 lineup - that sort of thing).

RED has kind of destroyed their ability to be the last to the party with some tiny little innovation and re-set the curve on what is available.

I think, once again, the stakes aren't just the cameras themselves, but the reconfiguring of how these camera companies do business.

Canon either will have figured this out - and will have to re-think their approach...or else they won't, and it will be just another 4K option which will benefit RED because it validates 4K and will benefit Canon because they'll sell a shitload of L lenses, both to RED users and to their own customers, which is where they make their best product margins anyway....
 
Jannard said:
There are lots of reasons why not to like RED.

....

If someone else is thinking 10, RED is thinking 500. 500 has lots of problems because no one has ever been there before. Getting to 500 is difficult... way more difficult than anyone might imagine. That's why the other guys don't shoot for 500. We do. Silly us.

...
...

Jim
Click to expand...

That made me really laugh…

Sometimes I think you just have fun messing with an entire industry/industries, waaaaaay too much fun.

Don’t stop having fun!

(fingers crossed for the 3rd Nov.)

Big Cheers,

Eric
 
Jimmy Moss said:
If you not pissing some people off..... your not doing anything worth doing. Keep it up. :yesnod:
Click to expand...

I think I am going to frame that quote and put it on the wall.

On the pissing off stakes I am still reminded of a rather “naughty” seven ton Bavarian elephant…

Peace Out..

Eric
 
Jannard said:
There are lots of reasons why not to like RED. And there are plenty of RED-haters out there.

1. We are not the establishment. Quite the contrary.

2. We talk too much about "what we might do, what we are going to do, or what we are thinking about". Then we change our minds. Several times.

3. You have to upgrade firmware too much. We keep enabling features and improving performance. While this is often a good thing, it forces our customers to pay attention.

4. We are in a constant state of back order. You see it, you want it... you have to wait for it.

5. There isn't enough info available. RED is short on written support, manuals and training tools.

6. While there is no question that RED is pushing the industry along (and has for the past 5 years)... RED "over-markets". Like 4K. Like RAW. Like everything...

7. RED is always late. This could actually be #1. RED says October. By the time it is done it is June two years later. Valid complaint.

It is easy to see why RED has polarized the industry. We are the good news and the bad news. We are pushing the envelop and at the same time we have no idea what we are doing... actually we are just beginning to figure out what we are doing. If someone else is thinking 10, RED is thinking 500. 500 has lots of problems because no one has ever been there before. Getting to 500 is difficult... way more difficult than anyone might imagine. That's why the other guys don't shoot for 500. We do. Silly us.

If there is anything good about RED... it is the core belief that 1080P (or 2K) is not a reasonable replacement for film. We started our business based on this belief. Finally, it seems like others have finally agreed. No matter what happens going forward, our success and legacy will be based on this simple thought. 1080P is not good enough. 4K delivery is.

We know we are the black sheep of the industry. Oh well. When all is said and done, RED will have moved the industry to a better place.

Now... we are not done. We fully expect to be disruptive going forward. We are just getting started. We are building a library of knowledge that we can leverage for the future. But we have lots of things to improve on. If other companies can keep pace, God love them.

Expect us to surprise you. When we stop doing that, we have no right to be under consideration.

Until then... stay tuned. We have a lot more coming.... lots of big surprises.

Jim
Click to expand...


Jim, your such a "glass is half empty" guy. cheer up : )
 
The hype that is building up, in the last few years, months and weeks, reminds me the hype, that only Apple could create with their products, all over the world, with Mr Steve Jobs. I haven't met Steve Jobs, or Jim J in person, but reading your posts Mr Jannard, and watching what's going on with THE RED company surely reminds me of something, that we could only see from Steve Jobs. Can't wait to hear all of the info, on Nov 3rd!
 
"If there one good thing about Red..."

One? Come on! I don't even own anything yet (Only cause I'm waiting for Nov. 3rd) and I'm fully committed to this Company and its Philosphy. As far as I'm concerned nothing is ever really late. It will always happen when its supposed to. I would rather products come out at a pushed up date if it means it will be a better product, and we all know this is a staple of Red. Besides having a Kick Ass product which in my opinion cannot be touched, what I observed about this company is it Actually communicates with their clients, and works hard to take care of them.

People don't have to like Red, or Me for that matter. That's okay.

But... Red is going to do what they do, regardless, and... So will I, and all of us here.

Nov. 3rd! Bring it!
 
I am torn between mad as hell and happy that you exist. I am eagerly awaiting the day when I have a camera that is just good enough for me for the next 10-15 years. So thank you that you exist thank you for your frankness and openness - and try to hit one date at one point :P that would sure as hell calm me down a bit :D
 
All of these "reasons" are simply the side effects of taking a hard road, so they are as much a reason to love as to hate ((( :
 
There would be no 4K today without RED.. (They might be talking about.. But not shooting it)

There would certainly be no overcranking at 4k (or 5k) without RED.

There have been times where RED has pissed me off. But then... So have my kids.

And I love them all.

Jay
 
Jannard said:
If there is anything good about RED... it is the core belief that 1080P (or 2K) is not a reasonable replacement for film.

Jim
Click to expand...

I have to respectfully disagree with my interpretation of that statement... For me, the belief wasn't 1080p, or 2k. While "4k" was a major selling point, the core belief (as I saw it) didn't have numbers attached to it. It was a shared, kindred rebellious attitude and implied belief that the other companies were no longer being progressive.. they were doing the ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM to appease the customer, and remain relevant against their competitors, but that was it. There was no passion to push the limits of current imaging technology. I, personally, LIVE with a passion to exceed my limits, whether it's taking a deeper breath from day to day, or pushing the boundaries of my capabilities, knowledge, and experience.

RED did all of that in a shroud for explosive energy, and continues to do it every day since.

I have my contentions with some of RED's business decisions. But on the whole, the attitude I fell in love with, is still there every day. That is why I'm still a customer and a fan. The day RED stops doing that, or someone does it better, with more passion, I'll forget RED-- the exception being trips down memory lane, to see where I've been, and keep perspective on how I got there-- RED will always be part of that.

Thanks, to everyone at RED. May you always keep your passion to do what others say is impossible!
 
What is remarkable about the list is how many points there are that could make people dislike Red. Yet there is clearly a strong following. The lesson here is people like open communication. Old school farmer John talking to banker Bill. That's the foundation a strong economy is built on.

So many things are forgivable when you can talk to people about what is going on.
 
Oh I forgot to mention a Price point that the competition can't touch. (Epic) That allows anyone who can afford an decent vehicle to own a camera that Blockbuster films are shot on.

Therefore allwoing indie filmakers a better shot at fulfilling what canonly be called a Dream.

A form factor that that dramatically reduces man power and therefore allowing a production to be more efficient and cost effective.

And of course, the products just look Better.

Haters Gonna Hate. That's what they do.
 
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