Why should I buy Komodo over BMD 6K Pro?

[Michael Hastings]

I think anyone that has followed me at all on Reduser knows I’m not a RED troll and am a RED fan but not "Fanboy". I’ve owned and purchased every generation of RED camera the moment preorders happened (Redone SN206, DSMC1 Epic-M and Epic-X+Dragon Upgrade, DSMC2 Epic-W 8K, Hydrogen1) except Komodo - which I fully intended to purchase.

However I was a bit put off by the Hydrogen debacle and the “it’s not us" stuff from RED but figured I would grab it with the $1000 “discount”. However, instead of giving us loyal Red/Hydrogen owners (that ordered through RED) first dibs on the 1000+ beta units we were pushed back pretty far in the line. During the waiting period the R5 was introduced and I jumped on it first day. I’ve been very happy with the R5 - just a phenomenal camera but that’s another story.

I haven’t had much issue with the 29.59 limit or overheating but since I do a lot of underwater work it’s going to be an issue sometimes so I’m considering which camera to be the “B” cam. (I manufacture the housings so having two housings isn’t an economic issue for me.) As the pandemic winds down and travel to islands open up I expect to get back underwater and would like some "Reduser" help with this decision.

Global shutter is nice but hasn’t been much of an issue for me (and rolling shutter has been there in every digital capture major and minor motion picture/TV show in the last dozen years.)

Komodo dynamic range is a clear winner but I’m used to the 14+ of the R5 and previous REDs so not a huge benefit for me. Usually blown out sky is the only thing that I occasionally have problems with (and the sky replacement in Resolve is pretty amazing)

Komodo wins:

* Global shutter vs. Rolling shutter
* Dynamic range (per mfrs.) 16 vs 13
* 2.1 lbs vs 2.7 for BMD (most of that diff is the screen size)
* RF mount (PS should have noted that PL to RF mount is easy and adapters readily available)
* 4K SDI 30 (maybe 40) output vs BMD HDMI up to 1080p60
* Maybe WIFI control (not sure WIFI on BMD, but has bluetooth iOS control - might be a wash)


Nobody wins:
* BMD RAW vs Komodo Raw (we can argue this but Komodo DCT compression is very different than previous r3d)
* Cfast slot
* Prores
* Canon Battery 9xx vs Sony NP-F570 - dual on Komodo - $149 acc grip gives triple 570 on BMD
* Blackmagic Design 3500mAh Li-ion Replacement Battery for Sony NP-F570-$55 each. 955 4900AH $195)
* Operating temp - same


BMD wins: (some of these specs are just copied from BMD site)

* Price $2495 (-$295 if u don’t have Resolve/Fusion) vs $5995 Komodo

* Also SDXC slot
* Dual locking mini-xlrs with phantom Power (adptr to 2 XLRs $39) plus 1/8 inch. Vs only 1/8” on Komodo
* Dual gain
* Built in ND vs none on Komodo
* 5” 1500 Nits tiltable touchscreen 1920 x1080 vs. 2.9" 1440X1440 fixed top touchscreen on Komodo
* Better interface (mine and many other’s opinion)
* Better ergonomics / physical feel and direct access buttons for important functions vs touchscreen

* Iris wheel physical control on grip (pretty big deal if using Canon lenses) or touchscreen slider for manual iris adjustment on electronically controllable lenses, iris button for instant auto iris settings on compatible lenses.

* $495 accy VF
* Faster Bootup
* dedicated stills button to record 21.2 megapixel images

* Higher Frame rates and many more size and rate options vs. Komodo
* 50 fps at 6144 x*3456 16:9 or 60 fps at 6144 x*2560 2.4:1 and 60 fps at 5744 x*3024 17:9. For*higher frame rates you can window the sensor and shoot up to 120 fps at 2.8K 2868 x*1512 17:9. You*can even work in true anamorphic 6:5 using anamorphic lenses in 3.7K 60 fps at 3728 x*3104.

* I do some live-switch jobs and Red's progressive only outputs don't always play well with a lot of live systems.

* Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera now works as a studio camera for live production when used with ATEM Mini! Video and control is via the HDMI connection, which is available as soon as you plug the cameras in.
* The record light becomes a tally light so you can see which camera is on air!
* The ATEM Software Control camera page has a camera control unit (CCU) style interface for adjusting and matching your cameras. Move the CCU control vertically for iris and left to right to adjust black level. It's the same as a broadcast CCU! There are also controls for color tint to balance cameras as well as focus, gain and shutter speed. You can even ISO record Blackmagic RAW in the camera for editing later!
* Focus, Iris, zoom lens control through ATEM (also could be with external simple hand controller via ATEM protocol-think there are already 3rd parties for this but may need to be updated for HDMI interface since previous cams used the SDI connector)
* Physical controls:
* Scroll Wheel with push integrated into handgrip
* ISO Button
* White Balance Button
* Shutter Button
* 3 software configurable Fn buttons,
* 2 ND filter button (up down)
* Focus Button
* IRIS Button
* High Frame Rate (HFR) Button
* Zoom (Image) Button
* Menu Button
* Playback Button.
* Battery grip accy for even longer record
*
* includes a*full version of DaVinci Resolve Studio (includes Fusion)

 

[Michael Hastings]

Your thoughts? Do I need to change the signature I've had for over a year with the "Komodo soon" or make it just "Komodo".


(I'll use this as a placeholder as well for future comment)

 

[Han Vogen]

No one can answer why “you” should buy one product over another. But personally, outside of the reasons that you listed, the things that made the Komodo decision easy for me were the following:

• Build quality - plastic vs full metal.
• Form-factor - the Blackmagic is awkwardly shaped. Making rigging a challenge.
• RF vs EF mount - as a owner of lots of RF glass this was a big factor “for me”.
• Poor quality control - it seems several users have had issues with their brand new BMPCC6KPs.
• Previous experience with BMD products. I’ve had them break on me. One Micro Studio Camera died. Shuts down immediately after power on. Unfortunately, that’s just one of several BMD products that I’ve owned that proved unreliable.

Unsurprisingly, even the latest Timecode issue in this thread might be caused by Davinci Resolve, not the Komodo. I’m still trying to find an answer, so atm I cannot draw a conclusion either way. But the more I think about it, the more it seems possible that the issue is with Resolve... another BMD product.

Of all the camera brands I’ve owned, NONE have been as unreliable for me as BMD... NONE! My preference is greatly influenced by my previous experiences. But... YMMV.

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

They should have put an SDI output

 

[Michael Hastings]

responses

responses

Excellent points Han

My responses are from the "devil's advocate POV - why? because one is $2500 the other $6000 - and for discussion purposes. Long posts - many will say TLDR - so sorry but without history and detail the various opinions don’t carry much weight.

* Build: Calling "carbon fiber polycarbonate composite "plastic" is technically accurate but misleading. It is essentially what RED offered in the Carbon Fiber Dragons that were $20,000 more than the Magnesium/Aluminum Dragons. Having 40 years experience working with acrylic, PVC, polycarbonate and aluminum on thousands of housings - polycarbonate is one of the toughest, most resilient and important engineering materials available and the addition of carbon fiber ramps it up a notch. I would suggest that a fall or impact on the CFPC vs aluminum, the CFPC is more likely to incur less or no damage, particularly regarding the internals. Aluminum is more likely to dent and/or transfer the energy to the internals while CFPC gives a bit and transfers less shock - that's why it is used in helmets, bumpers, etc. Also IIRC the internal structure is magnesium alloy on both.

* Awkardly shaped: Disagree - BMD is obviously much nicer for handholding. As for rigging, first: Komodo pretty much requires an external monitor unless it is in a remote application - BMD does not. Second: for any substantial rigging both cry out for some sort of cage (readily available for both) and at that point not much difference - more dependent on the cage. AND the need to use the top monitor touchscreen for most functions on the Komodo are more likely to be a problem with cage or other rigging than the rear tiltable monitor and direct access buttons for all major functions on the BMD.

* RF vs EF: I like the RF mount A LOT and one of the reasons I’m leaning toward Komodo. (Don’t have RF lenses yet for my R5 - all the ones I want are on backorder so using EF Ls with adapter.) Having been the very FIRST customer to use Canons on REDs (maybe even before Jim/Jarred) all the the way back to RedOne and using Canons almost exclusively on all my RED cameras as well as several BMDs (As a housing manufacturer I quite often have to buy cameras, test them, build housings and then end up reselling the camera to one of my customers so I get both direct and wide ranging followup feedback.) Red’s Canon and Nikon support hasn’t always been stellar, often a bit buggy. In my experience for Canon support I would give RED a C/C+ and BMD a B/B+. Given the difficulty of reverse engineering a new mount vs a 34 year old mount and the rapid introduction of quite a few RF lenses I doubt if that support will improve much any time soon. Also, I think it is harder (maybe not possible) to do switchable internal ND with the shorter flange distance of the RF mount.

* Quality control: I’d give RED slight edge here - but - most of the evidence is anecdotal and hard to quantify because pretty sure BMD sells a much higher number of each model than RED does. I’ve owned about the same number of REDs and BMDs and personally haven’t had issues with either. I currently have a micro 4k and an Ursa Broadcast that I’ve used for a couple years with my live switch flight pack (B4 zooms and smaller sensors are a lot friendlier for that type of work than s35 “cinema” cams/lenses.) with no issues. BTW Redvolts and the Redmote were pretty much garbage and there seem to be quite a bit of probs with monitors and extremely expensive to get repaired. Further it seems that the biggest resistance to high end users NOT using REDs is perceived unreliability (same probably for BMD) so probably not the best differentiator.

* Not sure about the timecode. BMD site says when you feed audio timecode into the 1/8” it resets and locks the internal TC generator so your using the camera TC so should be easy to verify in the field and match to other cameras as well. Seems like you are saying the issue is with using audio TC as the main TC and generally speaking I think the industry would agree that the BMD6K method is much preferred. The issues with audio track TC could be with either levels or noise on the camera side (internal audio recording quality through 1/8" has always been an issue with REDs) - or a bug in Resolve or both. It seems like you are conflating a somewhat obscure POSSIBLE bug in their edit/CC/VFX software program with possible unreliability in their camera hardware. That doesn’t seem fair with such a massive software program that may be the greatest bang-for-the-buck product (Resolve/Fusion/Fairlight) in the history of video/cinema products. And I think we are both aware that if it is a bug in Resolve it will be fixed in a timely manner.

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Again, these are discussion points and not meant to be harsh toward Komodo.

Even if global shutter isn’t that important for me right now, in the grand scheme, GS with high dynamic range is a BIG deal. Red developed Komodo primarily as a B/crashcam so maybe these points are useful to consider toward the next low cost/compact camera from RED. A next generation, low cost, global shutter, CFEXpress, RF mount, internal ND, ergonomic cam with direct access functions buttons, RED camera would be awesome and my next camera for sure!

 

[Dominik Muench]

the pocket does have a wonderful image performance ! how is the blackmagic with "budget" anamorphics such as the vazen or sirui ? do any of these work ? if so in which mount ?

 

[Bill Ravens]

The answer, for me, is simple. There are two factors that make the choice a no brainer.
1-a global shutter-for all the apps that claim to correct rolling shutter distortion, none of them really work effectively. For stabilization in post, there is less of a problem.
2-the RF lens mount. IMHO, BMD really missed the boat by replaying the EOS mount on the 6K Pro. An RF mount give me so much more lens flexibility, insertable VND or 1.7x expanders.

 

[Michael Hastings]

The answer, for me, is simple. There are two factors that make the choice a no brainer.
1-a global shutter-for all the apps that claim to correct rolling shutter distortion, none of them really work effectively. For stabilization in post, there is less of a problem.
2-the RF lens mount. IMHO, BMD really missed the boat by replaying the EOS mount on the 6K Pro. An RF mount give me so much more lens flexibility, insertable VND or 1.7x expanders.

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PS./Foreword:wink5:

I know I can get a bit longwinded, but I've shot in pretty much any situation you can think of and been thinking intensely about this stuff for 40 years. Been on test teams and advisories for both Panasonic and Sony (was on a test team and actually in the ads for Sony's very first 3 chip camera back in 1986). My hope is to pass on some of that knowledge, experience and insight to others.

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1: As I said below I have great respect for the global shutter, there are certainly use cases where GS gives dramatic improvement. The question is whether it is worth the extra $3500 combined with the other crashcam style Komodo limitations or 6KPro advantages as listed below.

If RED had a camera with the GS and the screen, direct buttons, and other 6KPro positives I outlined below for $6K or even a bit above I would jump on it (hint, hint RED for DSMC3) - I'm somewhat but not super price sensitive - I've already spent about $150K on REDs (although I'm pretty sure the Epic-W was the last camera I will ever spend more than $12K for - given what's available now and likely in the future below that price point.).

I think we can probably agree that the $54K RED Monstro and some ($$$$$) version of Alexa represent the 2 "best" high end cinema cameras and neither have global shutters.

2) I too like the flexibility of the RF mount - my only camera above 4K is the R5 with RF mount (sold my Epic-W anticipating Komodo with my Hydrogen discount for reduced size package for underwater. But we H1s were pushed so far down the line I lost some enthusiasm and bought the R5 and let my H1 discount lapse. (curious when did Hydrogen discounters start getting Komodo or are they still waiting?)

I don't think BMD missed the boat really because nobody other than Canon has implemented decent RF lens support. BMD wanted to incorporate the internal NDs which is important to a lot of nature and run and gun type shooters. I think the shorter flange distance makes it pretty difficult otherwise I think RED would have done it. Internal NDs are on the C70 so it can be done. I only have the simple direct Canon EF-RF but the filter EF-RF adapters are not sealed at the camera side so I would be concerned about dust and moisture getting to the sensor area. The drop-ins would require frequent changes so definitely an issue and it seems a lot of people frown on variable NDs if singles are available for their application. (For me the electrically driven internals are pretty nice because the buttons are easily accessed in a housing while the adapter versions would be difficult if not impossible.)

Not sure what your getting at with the expanders unless you want to adapt a 4/3 lens which doesn't seem a particularly good idea. If you meant speed boosters - no problem on the regular EF mount.

Again I really like the RF mount and the specs/reviews on the lenses (I have a $11000 shopping list of the high end RF lenses on my Adorama account but they are all on backorder!). Apparently the wider throat and shorter flange distance have big advantages for lens designers but if I understand correctly you really only get substantial improvements over the older lenses on full frame sensors.

I'll probably keep my Canon EF-S 10-22 and EF-S 17-55 for the Komodo/6KPro and sell my 4 L lenses toward the RFs (anybody want some Ls? :wink5. I have a set of perfect Sony PL lenses that I bought B-stock and only used for some tests (I don't do those PL shoots much and haven't tried to rent them yet.) but that's a plus for the Komodo cause PLs are easy to adapt to RF.

BTW for anyone buying either camera on a tight budget that 17-55 is a great choice. It was $1179 when introduced but is $599 new these days. It's an excellent lens, sharp, constant 2.8 aperture, parfocal, nice bokeh, nice mechanics. I was told by the Canon rep that it was built to L optical specs but they wouldn't put the L on it because won't fit on Canon full frame (has two UD elements usually only on L lenses at the time) and it looks and feels like an L to me.
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Regarding my thought about how much I would spend on a camera - it seems to me moving forward the investment in lenses is likely to be more important than the camera/sensor.

 

[Bill Ravens]

Michael,

Thanks for your knowledgeable post. The whole argument of global vs rolling shutter is quite subjective, I think. Personally, I find the jello effect quite unsettling for high motion shots.
Apologies for the senior moment I had. Yes, I meant speed booster, not expander. Being able to choose a FF 35mm FOV or a super 35 FOV gives me an adaptability for all my stable of EF, L glass lenses. I just bought a 24-70 f/2.8 EOS lens specifically instead of the R mount equivalent, just so I could use the Canon speedbooster on my Canon R. I don't have an EF-s lenses... Guess I'm hoping that, eventually, R mount becomes as de riguer as EF mounts have become. Surely R mount opens up a much wider possibility for lens choices than EF, including the few FD legacy lenses I have.

There's been some info from Breakthru Photography that they have a line of VND insertable filters that don't display the common VND artifacts. I'm taking a gamble that these reports are accurate. I just can't feel comfortable with BMD's design approach placing 3 different flip down ND's between the lens and the sensor, each one able to collect dirt and dust on their own.

 

[Phil Holland]

My words would ring hollow as I'm fairly biased as Komodo has unique features that make it more interesting to me.

But, I'll reply what I did to one of the BMD Facebook groups when this question was asked. The best thing to do is to spend a day with each camera and make a decision based on that. They are pretty different cameras.

With that said and out of the way. BMD 6K Pro has the slight edge on frame rates. I've pretty impressed by their menu system.

Komodo is built to survive a Hulk Smash encounter and feels as such. I think SDI up to 4K out is the clear winner between these two. I don't use anything HDMI for professional work, but that's a me thing. Too many broken cables and connectors I've seen. RED Control with live monitoring is a big plus as is the streaming features of Komodo. Certainly capable of live broadcast really. Edge to REDCODE RAW on that front.

Both aren't super sexy for low light, but I would say I like the highlight and color filter on Komodo a lot more. Not a big fan of the NDs found on the 6K Pro. Nice to have them in camera, not nice if you can achieve better results using better filters.

Sensor size comparison just to post it:
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare/formatCompare.cgi?makeA=RED&modelA=Komodo+6K&formatA=6K+17%3A9&makeB=Blackmagic+Design&modelB=Pocket+CC+6K&formatB=6K&focalLengths=

Resolution is moderately a wash, but the sensor themselves are indeed different aspect ratios.

With the BMD 6K Pro I strongly recommend adding an OLPF.

Lens mount support is a bit better on Komodo for pretty much everything plus native RF.

Form factor, Komodo. Batter options. Komodo. But the grip is an interesting solve for BMD.

Touch screen, larger on BMD for sure.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Michael,

Thanks for your knowledgeable post. The whole argument of global vs rolling shutter is quite subjective, I think. Personally, I find the jello effect quite unsettling for high motion shots.
Apologies for the senior moment I had. Yes, I meant speed booster, not expander. Being able to choose a FF 35mm FOV or a super 35 FOV gives me an adaptability for all my stable of EF, L glass lenses. I just bought a 24-70 f/2.8 EOS lens specifically instead of the R mount equivalent, just so I could use the Canon speedbooster on my Canon R. I don't have an EF-s lenses... Guess I'm hoping that, eventually, R mount becomes as de riguer as EF mounts have become. Surely R mount opens up a much wider possibility for lens choices than EF, including the few FD legacy lenses I have.

There's been some info from Breakthru Photography that they have a line of VND insertable filters that don't display the common VND artifacts. I'm taking a gamble that these reports are accurate. I just can't feel comfortable with BMD's design approach placing 3 different flip down ND's between the lens and the sensor, each one able to collect dirt and dust on their own.

Bill: I too really dislike jello on fast moving subjects - I'm an aviation/space buff and it's super annoying to see props curved to a half circle. (BTW RIP Mike Collins Apollo 11 CM Pilot who just passed - favorite astronaut and wrote the best astro autobiography "Carrying the Fire" - if you read only one that's the one.)

My bread and butter shoots involve primarily underwater - often with an add-on interview or some local B-roll - neither much of an RS problem.

But truthfully Global shutter combined with the ability to use PL mount lenses (which I forgot to mention in initial post but since corrected) are the biggest reasons that lean me toward Komodo.

I take your point on filter wheels and cleaning - but there have been about a billion cameras made with them over the years :wink5: - so I'll call that six of one/half dozen of other. But the point that you have many more and probably better options with external vs. internal is totally valid.

EF allows a lot of adapted other lenses - I've used C/Y Zeiss, Nikon and Tamron. But, yes using the excellent old FD lenses is cool and Speedboosted EF is pretty sexy.

I haven't ever played with speedboosters and since there are optics in the booster I was under the impression there were EF to EF versions that handled the flange depth issue - in part because I have an old FD to EF optical adapter from back in the day where I was trying a little of everything. A quick google indicates I was wrong. I use the 4K scaled APS-C/S35 mode a lot on my R5 so I'll have to get one of the those speedboosters.

BTW Don't know if you do much with stills but the AF on the R5 really is freaking amazing and works well in video mode too.

 

[Michael Hastings]

My words would ring hollow as I'm fairly biased as Komodo has unique features that make it more interesting to me.

Phil: Your words never ring hollow - you're one of my favorite reads on Reduser and the work you've put into the charts and tests and educational and general commentary are greatly appreciated.

They should have put an SDI output

snip: I think SDI up to 4K out is the clear winner between these two. I don't use anything HDMI for professional work, but that's a me thing. Too many broken cables and connectors I've seen. RED Control with live monitoring is a big plus as is the streaming features of Komodo. Certainly capable of live broadcast really. Edge to REDCODE RAW on that front.

@Berenger and Phil: I like locking BNCs too but I understand why BMD did it. The ATEM mini switchers (starting at $295) that were introduced at the same time are HDMI based and made to allow cheap camcorders to be hooked up. (Truthfully, even cheap 1080P camcorders produce pretty decent pics, for YouTube, corporate, etc.) Also the micro converter HDMI to SDI is only $45, but obviously a kludgy work around. The one thing I've wondered is whether the multi conductor HDMI would have safer grounding vs SDI that people have been worried about getting fried with power connect/disconnects.

Only having 1080 out on 6KPro is disappointing (since I have 4K out on the other 2 cams I use and a 4K switcher) but honestly so far most live is still doing 1080 - hell, Fox is still broadcasting NFL in 720P.

On the other side, Komodo is 4K SDI out but AFAIK REDs are still all progressive all the time and that doesn't play very well with the more standard interlaced cameras. I also think the RED progressive isn't compatible with the progressive in the Sony switchable interlace/progressive cams. I did a live shoot where the client insisted on using his RED (DSMC) mixed with other cams and we had to use the Teranex to get it stable enough to feed the satellite truck. So unless it is all RED cams I would expect to have some issues that you need to plan for.

TBH large sensors aren't very practical for most live shoots - particularly sports - imagine a 100x f1.7 zoom (common in broadcast) for S35 - you'd need a forklift to move it around :wink5:. Even an 18x like common ENG lenses would be pretty tough. I know NFL films uses Arris but that's not for live - I doubt any S35s are used live except maybe a sideline camera showing the players and coaches.

Phil: I wasn't sure if you meant using the 4K SDI out for live or the WIFI? Aren't there latency issues? Seems like that would be another headache. With all of the VFX devices, wireless cams, multiple distribution paths, etc. - keeping audio sync to video is already a fairly big headache in the broadcast world.

Really, neither is likely to be particularly suitable for serious live work.

The URSA Broadcast that I have ($3495) - 4K with a B4 lens mount and all the traditional buttons, ND wheel, 12G SDI out, flip screen and ACCY. VF, etc. is a much more practical camera for serious live work with an inexpensive camera.

For example: For corporate work I can do a pretty decent 4K IMAG job with the small 4K flight pack, and one other shooter - one on the URSA on sticks and the Micro 4K on a pan and tilt. I operate the switcher and pan/tilt. The switcher supports talkback and CCU through the SDI and audio mixing. Has eight inputs for cameras, computer for Powerpoint, etc. All for about $14K total investment.

 

[Han Vogen]

@Michael Hastings you seem pretty convinced by the BMPCC6KP... why not just buy one? You can always sell it back if you change your mind. Or optionally, rent both and see which you gravitate towards most.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I would say for me, since I own a Monstro, is that the color science, Redcode raw workflow (I use a lot FCPX and Blackmagic raw doesn’t play nice) are a big plus vá the Blackmagic.

The Blackmagic does produce great pictures, but the redcode raw workflow and current ipp2 colors just edge it for me.

 

[Michael Hastings]

@Michael Hastings you seem pretty convinced by the BMPCC6KP... why not just buy one? You can always sell it back if you change your mind. Or optionally, rent both and see which you gravitate towards most.

@Han: Fair point.

I'm actually leaning back toward Komodo - primarily based on the global shutter, and the RF mounts ability to use speedboosters as @Bill Ravens pointed out that I wasn't aware of and ability to use the PL mount lenses.

Does anyone know the wait time if you order Komodo now? Seems it is at least a few months.

Obviously the title of the thread was a bit of a clickbait challenge, but I wasn't wanting to annoy anyone. This thread in part was just to do a deep dive (NPI) into the nuances of each. I don't absolutely have to have either one at the moment. I'd like to stick with RED but I'd also really like RED to get past the modular only concept - a Komodo sensor, RF mount with a bunch of direct access buttons like the BMD (and Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Arri) would be ideal. The Fincher/Bay cams show they can do it.

We are also getting pretty late in the product cycle and I'm wondering if we are getting close to DSMC3 - seems like pre-covid we were expecting sometime late 2020 early 2021. I know the supply chain issues will be here for a while as to actual full manufacturing production - but covid also may have given the engineering/CAD guys a bit more time to refine things.

On more of a personal situation:
I'm not sure how long it will be for dive travel to islands will get back to normal so I may just put everything off and get my knee fixed. Back in 1971 I had a complete rupture of my ACL from football. Had it repaired but it was the dark ages of knee surgery. 3-4 months into recovery, before I was even supposed to start jogging - I witnessed a girl get run over by a car and sprinted to help (she ended up with some broken ribs and tire tracks but otherwise ok.) I knew I'd damaged it but didn't go back to doctor because my coach had already told me if there were any complications he wouldn't let me play my senior year.

Before MRIs and arthroscopy it was hard to evaluate ligaments. Always thought was just stretched and if you keep the muscles really strong it kind of holds things together, but it tends to bother me more when walking where there isn't the muscle tension. Went for an MRI recently and it came back "no visible ACL" :angry::scared:. These days they replace it with a cadaver tendon - drill some holes and screws - and I guess new ligament grows over it - but it's at least 5-6 months before can even think about climbing on and off a dive boat in dive gear.

Anyway, "Back to our regularly scheduled programming..."

 

[Michael Hastings]

I would say for me, since I own a Monstro, is that the color science, Redcode raw workflow (I use a lot FCPX and Blackmagic raw doesn’t play nice) are a big plus vá the Blackmagic.

The Blackmagic does produce great pictures, but the redcode raw workflow and current ipp2 colors just edge it for me.

Sergio:

One of the things I'm not clear on is if the DCT compression in Komodo is just about compression and the overall color science is the same as other REDs or is the Komodo color science all new and different from the wavelet type .R3D?

A lot of my stuff just gets handed over to the client and I never see it again, so not always up to speed on the editing side. I'm not shooting or editing constantly - building the housings is still my bread and butter. I don't really promote myself as a shooter since I feel like I would be competing with my customers so I only take jobs that "come through the door" so to speak.

However, I was looking at some old R1 and Epic footage recently that I hadn't seen since the days when you had to tweak everything in REDCINE and it seemed like with the IPP2 it looked pretty great without doing anything. I didn't even know if IPP2 was supposed to work with the old stuff and maybe I just wasn't remembering, but it really seemed pretty good.

 

[Jeff Whitehurst]

Seems like the Komodo has significant advantages in regards to underwater use although I have only shot DSMC1/2 UW. I have used the BMPCC6K underwater and found the images quite good when properly exposed.

The width of a Komodo is 4", the BMPCC6KP is 7.08 (plus the IO is directly on the left side) Quick calculations indicate around 2.5X more air volume in a cylindrical housing required for the BMPCC6KP, with more housing mass and ballast to compensate. Not sure what material sizes you have available, but it seems like you would use 6" diameter for the Komodo, but maybe something around 9-10" diameter for the BMPCC6KP.

If the BMPCC6KP is used with a battery grip for sufficient power on a dive, the housing diameter must be larger to accommodate the extra height. If something like a V-Mount power brick is used to power camera and/or monitor, it seems to be difficult to mount it with the BMPCC6KP due to the rear built in screen. Komodo could have a V-Mount on camera with a tidy recess under it for IO cables.

The BMPCC6KP has single function buttons in various places around the camera, so you have to create mechanical control mechanisms that penetrate the hull in various locations and angles.
The Komodo has a common set of buttons on camera top that control the entire menu structure.

BRAW files have an post ISO limitation based upon the captured step range. You can choose 100-1000 or 1250-6400 for capture, but you can't adjust ISO outside of the captured gain step range in post. Unless you have a method for changing the BMPCC6KP settings underwater, you are limited to choosing the ISO step range for the entire dive and the editor has limited ability to change it in post.

BRAW post workflows are still somewhat niche and limited. R3D has matured to be an industry standard GPU accelerated post format.

Global shutter on Komodo, the rolling shutter on the BMPCC6KP is significant at 20ms 6K RAW.

Dynamic range on Komodo at ISO800 is 13.6 SNR1 and 12.5 SNR2. In addition the Komodo has a unique in-camera IPP2 highlight recovery algorithm. Cine-D Komodo test
BMPCC6KP at ISO400 is 12.9 SNR1 and 11.8 stops SNR2 (ISO3200 10 stops SNR2) with highlight recovery in only possible in post. Cine-D BMPCC6KP test

These same tests how that Komodo has 6 stops under and 1 stop over exposure recovery color latitude. (In addition to in-camera highlight recovery).
BMPCC6KP has 4 stops under and 4 stops over exposure color latitude.
For underwater footage I would rather have the Komodo's 6 stop under exposure color recovery latitude.

Topside monitoring and control with the Komodo is industry standard HD-SDI and Ethernet. With the BMPCC6KP you have USB-C and HDMI, not sure how practical those protocols would be for adaptation to a topside cable tether.

Speedbooster compatibility and more lens variety on the Komodo. Also noticed that available underwater housings for Komodo have a command wheel for the Vari-ND wheel on a RF-EF mount adaptor.

Thanks for the post, it's interesting to compare these products for underwater use.
Jeff

 

[Tyrone Braithwaite]

I own both. And I think there is enough of a cross over to justify both (shared lenses and Cf2 etc)

I actually prefer using the BM6kpro - it's a grab and go camera with nice ergonomics, menu system and the EVF is great. Komodo still needs to be built up really.

Bear In mind the Komodo doesn't play ball with the 17-55 so well due to the larger sensor in 6K.

However the IS on the BM6kpro seems to support all the lenses I've thrown at it. The Komodo definitely doesn't work with all I.S lenses for stabilisation.

Given the BMP6K is so cheap and does so much for the cash, I'd own both if you can. Share lenses and cards.

The rolling shutter on the BMP6k does seem worse than average to me. But I don't tend to fling cameras around so it's managable.

Finally the Red branding still gets me jobs. Some people struggle with BM but I've had no issues.

 

[Brian Roberts]

I would say for me, since I own a Monstro, is that the color science, Redcode raw workflow (I use a lot FCPX and Blackmagic raw doesn’t play nice) are a big plus vá the Blackmagic.

The Blackmagic does produce great pictures, but the redcode raw workflow and current ipp2 colors just edge it for me.

This is where I’m at with it too. Currently owning a DSMC2 Dragon-X as well as a BMPCC 6K, I’m all too familiar with just how much better and robust the IPP2 R3D is than Braw. There are just too many compromises with Braw by comparison.

For instance, and the biggest one for me, is that the Pocket 6K is dual gain which at face value seems awesome and a great feature. BUT, the raw workflow is also dual gain (though doesn’t follow the same values for whatever reason), so if you shoot anything over 1000 ISO, even though you’re shooting raw, 1000 ISO is your floor. Same thing for shooting under 1000 ISO, as that is now your ISO ceiling in post. Keep in mind that the second native gain stage on the sensor is 3200, so I have no idea how the dual raw iso values and sensor gain actually reconcile outside of having to refer to or memorize a chart showing how many stops over or under each value supports. Yeah..that’s a pain in the nuts. Especially since 1000 ISO and on either side of it is right in the wheelhouse of where so many of us shoot.

The Dragon, while it does seem to get noisier quicker is much more linear in its approach as ISO is truly just a metadata value that cam be modified full range in post. Is it at 800, 1600, 400..?....doesn’t matter, just open up that iris and go for it. No charts required.

 

[Mike P.]

Komodo is cool and all, but you wanna know what's really cool? That you can go into any decent camera store and walk out with BMP6k today. LOL.

Kidding aside, speed in both production and post is 100% in BMP6k's favour (it's ~5sec from off to recording and even a $1k M1 can playback braw 12k full res/full debayer at speed!) Plus it's flat-out easier to use/expose and truly doesn't require any additional rigging (whereas Komodo still kinda does even if it technically doesn't). The dual BPs of Komodo would last way longer though, which is certainly nice for underwater, but braw compression versatility means longer record times on the same amount of media... Can't knock the RF mount though; vND to EF or Speedbooster to EF, or RF to PL with full compatibility.... That's hot.

While Jeff's underexposure advantage is valid with regular ISO mode, by flipping into LL mode on the BMP6k you'll actually get that -6/+2 but at an even brighter ISO1600 (compared to ISO800 on Komodo). On the flip side, to get -4/+4 on Komodo you gotta rock a whopping ISO3200 (compared to a clean ISO640 on BMP6k). So in terms of exposure versatility, it'd go to the BMP6k. I've yet to see any underwater Gen5 or Komodo footage, but colour is subjective (and with raw can be pushed around quite a bit).

And counter-point to what Brain is saying, there are exposure compensation controls in NLEs, including Resolve, (literally -5 to +5) which are just as straightforward to use as ISO and independent of the dual gain. But for the record, it's ISO640 for even over/under in regular mode and ISO4000 for even over/under in LL mode (both of which are clean enough to use directly out of the camera). And as always, if you expose willy-nilly in regards to ISO with any RED - including Komodo - you're invariably clipping highlights early (which shouldn't be as much of a problem underwater, but potentially is the rest of the time).

All that being said, from a underwater housing standpoint, I'd think you'd get more sales for a Komodo housing (but only because my gut is telling me budgeted RED productions would be more inclined to use Komodo as their underwater cam)... Conversely, maybe the popularity of the readily available BMP6k would compensate for that, but if the housing costs more than the camera, I'd imagine a lot of users would shy away from it.

Speaking of which, have people been asking for one housing over the other? If making housings is your bread and butter, I'd go with whatever camera/market has shown the most interest.