Why lower your rates and equipment down to nothing just to kill the industry

[Robert Ruffo New]

From a filmmaker standpoint I have no sympathy for undercut rental houses or people getting low rates for renting their gear. Many of us came here to make film, not a buck.
What you are talking about is in fact competitive pricing.
I for one think it's great that the price to make art has come down and no longer remains in the hands of only those who can afford to buy and process film.

THIS THREAD BELONGS ON THE RENTAL GROUP PAGE.

If you make films and don't make bucks, you will only be able to make films part time, and your skills will never rise above prosumer level - as that takes time, and if you are working at Starbucks, there won't be much time left over. Making filsm costs bucks, lots fo them even if your camera is free.

As far as competitive pricing it's not quite the same here, as labor is involved. Unions exist for a reason, and so does minimum wage - as as they weaken bye-bye middleclass.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Can't be right. We had R1#3033 and Epic #2482.

The serial numbers are misleading. There is not one camera for every serial. They never came out and said there was, so it's not like it's sleazy - they could start their serials at 10 000 if they wanted. I know a company who makes a part that is only found on Epic at a certain QC level - so I know that number is fairly reliable. Scarlet I have no idea.

 

[jimhare]

For me the solution was considering all my gear as free basic tools and just assigning myself a very high day rate for my services. If you don't have a low-ball producer clouding the situation, and you can get $10k for something you know you can do in 4 days, boom!

You're making $2,500/day to divide between yourself and your gear.

I've always based my business on the premise of perceived value rather than day rate.

"How much to get this piece from concept to master?"

"$35,000..."

"How many days is that for?"

"Doesn't matter, I'm going to give you a $50k result for the bargain price of $35k"

"Sounds good"

So whether that job takes me three days or thirty days depends on my talent and ability to estimate how long it will take me.

As it turns out I'm very good at making that estimation and work fast.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

That is how I try to handle everything as a company, but when working as an individual on occasion I work as a day rate. I rarely negotiate it down, but will if I think the project is awesome, or if its with a person I enjoy working with.

 

[George Butterfield]

Any thoughts?

Yes, it's called free enterprise and capitalism. What you want is some sort of socialism.

 

[Nelson Carayannis]

I think that a problem that faces the industry right now is that people hire a camera before a DP for the medium to lower range jobs. I almost never tell a client of the equipment I own right away mostly I am more excited to learn what the project is about before hand then make suggestions. That is just my 2 cents.

 

[Eric M Hurt]

If you make films and don't make bucks, you will only be able to make films part time, and your skills will never rise above prosumer level - as that takes time, and if you are working at Starbucks, there won't be much time left over. Making filsm costs bucks, lots fo them even if your camera is free.

As far as competitive pricing it's not quite the same here, as labor is involved. Unions exist for a reason, and so does minimum wage - as as they weaken bye-bye middleclass.

People who are working in film on union jobs are making film and money. The people who are complaining are those folks who went out and bought a camera just to make a buck.
One group works hard to sharpen their skills and works up the ladder, the other buys a piece of equipment and then wonders why they can't get the money they want to get for it.

If you work in film AND own equipment then that's great, but one has to understand that the market will quickly dictate what that piece of gear is worth. If you bring a real skill to the table then you'll have a much better chance at making a living.

 

[Nelson Carayannis]

WOW amazing!

People who are working in film on union jobs are making film and money. The people who are complaining are those folks who went out and bought a camera just to make a buck.
One group works hard to sharpen their skills and works up the latter, the other buys a piece of equipment and then wonders why they can't get the money they want to get for it.

 

[ed ng]

I do not feel that this thread is for everyone because some people do not feel the affect it has taken on their own business but it may have some affect in the future. My opinion and in asking for any thoughts was to really find out if some people have felt the race to the bottom. My business relies on many other factors, many more things than just a camera package but it does have some impact because when we do a wrap book or send out bids, my producer needs to address each line and the camera side plays a key role. When we see that some people with package deals are getting in the door through a connection and offer such a low rate, it becomes a plague and then they set precedence for the client. Although I have only addressed this type of issue once, which is why I wrote this thread, it made me think about where could be heading.

 

[ed ng]

People who are working in film on union jobs are making film and money. The people who are complaining are those folks who went out and bought a camera just to make a buck.
One group works hard to sharpen their skills and works up the ladder, the other buys a piece of equipment and then wonders why they can't get the money they want to get for it.

If you work in film AND own equipment then that's great, but one has to understand that the market will quickly dictate what that piece of gear is worth. If you bring a real skill to the table then you'll have a much better chance at making a living.

You are absolutely correct until you log in your wrap book and put $500 for camera because that is the going rate that the producer budgeted for your package. Of course your talent is worth more than the camera but when it hits the bottom line and they look at your bid, the camera that you own may be taking a back seat because of your rate but maybe it does not matter too much.

I have never been challenged on my rate nor have we ever had an issue when we are on the Alexa but with the Red, producers have actually ask about the camera rate. We do not currently own an Alexa so most of our work is on the Red but producers do know their rates because it is always advertised. With the Alexa, we could just charge rental rates and not have an issue.

 

[Mike Garrick]

To all these producers out there who look at camera rates as opposed to demo reels or credits......... a question.

Are you a Producer or an accountant ?

 

[Brian Merlen]

Forget the gear, thats the least relevant part I think. What can you actually do? People who can provide more skill sets work more. I do DIT/audio/workflow/post/IT. Its nice because if I am not editing for the production I am DITing for them, and if we are dark that month I am probably fixing stuff for them on an IT basis. Setting up our new Unity for instance, or installing our new LTO system, backing up said content, or looking into future purchases.

The point is I have personally found wearing more hats brings me more work. At the set I work at I provide no gear at all. They provide everything I need, Red, Xeons, hand models, stylists, etc. Sometimes I bring an extra mag to make my life easier, but that is about it.

So unless your specifically into the rental industry I don't know why everyone wants to own gear at all. Unless your aiming to up your rates by owning gear, you might as well show up with nothing. I know more people working that own no gear, or don't use their prosumer gear on our sets, then people who actually own gear and rent it. I fall into the latter, but again the only reason I do is because I had the coin around and the motivation to want to up my rates, or to rent my gear out to one set while I work on another, etc.

So quit using the gear as a justification of rates, always be actively trying to learn new skill sets. Every year I get certified in a few more cameras, or try to pick up some new apps. I find it brings me a lot more success then just pouring money into gear hoping I can market it...

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Forget the gear, thats the least relevant part I think. What can you actually do? People who can provide more skill sets work more. I do DIT/audio/workflow/post/IT. Its nice because if I am not editing for the production I am DITing for them, and if we are dark that month I am probably fixing stuff for them on an IT basis. Setting up our new Unity for instance, or installing our new LTO system, backing up said content, or looking into future purchases.

The point is I have personally found wearing more hats brings me more work. At the set I work at I provide no gear at all. They provide everything I need, Red, Xeons, hand models, stylists, etc. Sometimes I bring an extra mag to make my life easier, but that is about it.

So unless your specifically into the rental industry I don't know why everyone wants to own gear at all. Unless your aiming to up your rates by owning gear, you might as well show up with nothing. I know more people working that own no gear, or don't use their prosumer gear on our sets, then people who actually own gear and rent it. I fall into the latter, but again the only reason I do is because I had the coin around and the motivation to want to up my rates, or to rent my gear out to one set while I work on another, etc.

So quit using the gear as a justification of rates, always be actively trying to learn new skill sets. Every year I get certified in a few more cameras, or try to pick up some new apps. I find it brings me a lot more success then just pouring money into gear hoping I can market it...

Well said.

 

[ed ng]

It is more difficult for us not owning some gear. We are not a rental house but having our equipment in the office has been very instrumental with some of our projects such as a poc or even camera prep. It is true, at least on my end that a producer is an accountant. If a producer does not receive my formal bid including PT/P&W if applicable then they would not be able to close their wrap book.

 

[Charles Papert]

Harry Clark, well said on many counts. Great crystallization of what it's really like for those who have been in the industry for a while. There is a perception amongst the indie crowd that we are all living the life of riches but it has changed quite a bit in the past five or ten years, hasn't it.

From my past incarnation as a Steadicam operator, I became accustomed to having a significant percentage of my income based on rentals (I always say that the wages put food on the table but the rig bought my house). When I moved up and sold the rig, I couldn't help but reinvest into other gear, mostly lenses. Sometimes I feel like my life would be easier without the hassle and having the shlep the gear around, but when I look at the tax returns, it all seems to make sense...

Critically, though, I don't own a camera package. And I won't leverage the gear into an "all in one" thing with my rate, despite the occasional attempts from producers to do so. I simply price match what the rental house would charge (which is sadly much more less than they used to--here in LA we are down to a one day week, which is murderous) and that's that. I understand that it is truly tempting to do so when one is starting out, but realize that productions are generally not budgeted without line items for camera packages, it's often a ploy by producers to save money by pretending this is the case.

One thing that I'm not entirely sure that the masses who own their own cameras and provide them basically for free are fully aware of: if that sucker goes down on set, you'd better have a replacement lined up, nearby and ready with a single phone call. Shrugging and expecting it to be production's problem may actually be logical (they were getting something for nothing, after all), but in their eyes, you will be the guy that screwed up their shoot because of your bad gear and you stand a good chance of not being asked back.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Harry Clark, well said on many counts. Great crystallization of what it's really like for those who have been in the industry for a while. There is a perception amongst the indie crowd that we are all living the life of riches but it has changed quite a bit in the past five or ten years, hasn't it.

From my past incarnation as a Steadicam operator, I became accustomed to having a significant percentage of my income based on rentals (I always say that the wages put food on the table but the rig bought my house). When I moved up and sold the rig, I couldn't help but reinvest into other gear, mostly lenses. Sometimes I feel like my life would be easier without the hassle and having the shlep the gear around, but when I look at the tax returns, it all seems to make sense...

Critically, though, I don't own a camera package. And I won't leverage the gear into an "all in one" thing with my rate, despite the occasional attempts from producers to do so. I simply price match what the rental house would charge (which is sadly much more less than they used to--here in LA we are down to a one day week, which is murderous) and that's that. I understand that it is truly tempting to do so when one is starting out, but realize that productions are generally not budgeted without line items for camera packages, it's often a ploy by producers to save money by pretending this is the case.

One thing that I'm not entirely sure that the masses who own their own cameras and provide them basically for free are fully aware of: if that sucker goes down on set, you'd better have a replacement lined up, nearby and ready with a single phone call. Shrugging and expecting it to be production's problem may actually be logical (they were getting something for nothing, after all), but in their eyes, you will be the guy that screwed up their shoot because of your bad gear and you stand a good chance of not being asked back.

jupp thats how it works.. Basically if you can bring them one camera for free then they at least expect that if it breaks then you bring them another one for the same price.... I actually never really ha the epic to go down on a shoot. Just small bugs and a re start then it's all good again. But I do try to convince clients that want to go out far away from town etc to shoot to bring spear body and I tell them I can supply them with one. Basically I think it's kind of nut to go and do a production that has any kind of budget and only relly on one camera. It's not like the light crew does not bring an extra light bulb and these "super computer" cameras has far more things in them that can break than every thing in the gaffer truck combined. So I think it's quite important to at least make sure that the client understands that they got all their eggs in one basket if the do not bring two camera heads. Pretty much every thing else in a camera setup has doubles. Lenses are usually possible to replace with the nearest one in the set, mags, batteries, computers. etc, etc. There is pretty much more than two of everything then bringing only one camera does not sound to smart does it? when thats explained to a producer they usually stops bitching about the price and are more interested in knowing how many they actually can book for the shoot...

 

[Eric M Hurt]

Could a moderator please move this thread to the rental group page?

 

[francisco santos]

This is more of a rant than anything else. I am just sick seeing people lower their rates to nothing, it just kills the market and does nothing for you in the long run.

I would love it if people would just keep the same prices as rental houses in addition to adding their day rate instead of giving everything away for free and then charging a half day rate to boot.

Example:
Basic Epic package $950 a day without lenses, monitors, shoulder rig, etc. and then a day rate to go on top and of course lenses and everything else.

Just saw this posted all for $950 a day (don't know if operator is included but looks like it):
Red Epic X

Titanium PL Mount
Side SSD Module
Red 5" Touch LCD
5" LCD Hoodman
72" LCD Cable
11" Articulating Arm
4x 128GB SSD Cards
Red SSD Station
Module Adapter
2x 3.5" To XLR Adapters

Quad Battery Module
14x Redvolt Batteries
4x Redvolt Single Chargers
DSMC AC Adapter

Allstar Bridge Plate For 19mm Rods
Arri 10" Dovetail
2x 18" 19mm Carbon Fiber Rods
DSMC Top Handle

Carl Zeiss Mark II Super Speeds
18mm T1.3 (CF 10")
25mm T1.3 (CF 10")
35mm T1.3 (CF 14")
50mm T1.3 (CF 28")
85mm T1.3 (CF 3')
120mm T3.0 (CF 4'6")
180mm T3.0 (CF 5')

Miller DS30 Fluid Head
Vinten Legs (100mm bowl)
Vinten Leg Spreaders

Handheld/Shoulder Rig (Allstar System):

Horizontal Bar, Handles, & Handle Extensions
Dovetail Shoulder Pad
Arri 10" Dovetail
2x 12" 19mm Carbon Fiber Rods

Dana Dolly
6' Dolly Rails/Track
2x Combo Stands For Track Ends
6x Caster Wheels For Combo Stands
Center Support For Long Rails

Bright Tangerine (Arri) VIV 3 Stage Matte Box
3x 4"x5.65" Filter Trays
Top Flag (Eyebrow)
19mm & 15mm Studio Rails Adapter
150mm - 80mm Clamp Adapter Ring
Lindcraft Lens Donut
Tiffen ND0.3 / ND0.6 / ND0.9
Rosco Trucolor IR Filter
Tiffen Linear Polarizer
Tiffen Glimmer Glass 1
Tiffen Low Contrast 1
Schneider Classic Soft 1/4

Arri FF3 Follow Focus
Second Focus Wheel (Dual System)
12" Follow Focus Whip
Arri Speed Crank
7x Marking Disks
0.8/32 Pitch Gear

SmallHD DP1x 9" Monitor
2x SmallHD Batteries
11" Articulating Arm
9" LCD Hoodman

Tiffen 80mm Clamp To Series 9
Tiffen ND0.3 / ND0.6 / ND0.9
Tiffen Circular Polarizer
Tiffen Low Contrast 1
Tiffen +2 / +3 Diopters
Tiffen 80A / 80B / 80C

Yes, we all need to make a living but can't we all be a little less competitive with our bids? I love working in this industry but soon enough, renting a Red Epic package with operator will be as cheap as getting a haircut as Super Cuts if this goes on.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Ed

Hey man I get it I understand why your mad but one thing to understand is there will always be someone out there to try and beat your price but in the end they will not make it in this business. Quality work will always win. Anytime a client hits me with the "joe shmo" will do it for this price I tell them to hire him. Think pennys you get pennys, think dollars you get dollars.

Cheers,

 

[jake blackstone]

To all these producers out there who look at camera rates as opposed to demo reels or credits......... a question.

Are you a Producer or an accountant ?

Usually I receive two types of requests. First mentions a given project, which then followed by request for a bid. And the second type talks about how much they like my work and would I mind talking to them about how I prefer to work and my rates. Which one do you think I eagerly respond to and which one do I just ignore? :emote_headwall:

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

I don't rent my camera or equipment, but if I did I'd rent it at a rate that I feel comfortable with, not with what other people want me to let my gear go for.

You might think its fun to bully or demegrate people for finding a way of making money from their investment, personally I think that as long as its legal then kudos to them for turning a profit in this economy. People should worry about their own business practices, rather than gang up on other people to try and force them to conform.

All his life my grandad baked bread in his own bakery and sold it very cheaply, he won farmers and industry awards for it and was highly regarded. When my mum asked him why he didn't charge more, he answered "Becuase people like to eat bread"