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Why is the Helium sensor easier to manufacture than the Dragon sensor?

Ben Scott

Ben Scott

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I assume that's the case with the talk of VV sensor yields not being great etc. Would be fascinated to know what it is about the Dragon sensor that even after a few years in production is such a challenge compared to the newer Helium design.


Cheers,

Ben
 
Ben Scott said:
I assume that's the case with the talk of VV sensor yields not being great etc. Would be fascinated to know what it is about the Dragon sensor that even after a few years in production is such a challenge compared to the newer Helium design.


Cheers,

Ben
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My guess is supplier.

Whoever RED's partner is on Helium appears to have them in large supply.

The Vista Vision Dragon's sheer SIZE appears to make it incredibly hard to manufacture perfectly - especially as it's one massive wafer, not two 6K Sensors stitched together (ala the Alexa 65, which I believe is three Alexa's stitched together, no? Don't quote me...)
 
Ben Scott said:
Interesting. I'd assumed for some reason it would be the same supplier/manufacturer but that makes a lot of sense, if true.
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From what little I've heard, I'm not sure it's the same manufacturer....(which may explain the smaller supply of one, and larger supply of the other?)
 
I thought the dragon sensors are made in house? no?
 
Ben Scott said:
I assume that's the case with the talk of VV sensor yields not being great etc. Would be fascinated to know what it is about the Dragon sensor that even after a few years in production is such a challenge compared to the newer Helium design.


Cheers,

Ben
Click to expand...

In general: After production wafers pass inspection to determine their usability. Larger sensor, less usability of the wafer. Not proportional to sensor size but much less. Lower usability of wafer, lower yield.
 
I think RED got double punched a bit:
1) more then three things changed at the fab plant which basically starts a ugly optimization process(my gut feel is the earthquake, changed fab volume, changed sensor size)
2) RED doesn't have bad/poor pixel correction before the wavelet (its an advanced form of blackshading which if it's not done between the sensor & wavelet creates a impulse response in the wavelet which thus requires then a near perfect sensor, arri does this but they don't have to worry about the wavelet)
 
Ben Scott said:
Makes sense Hrvoje, but surely that wouldn't be impacting Scarlet-W/Raven in the same way as VV would it?
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Nope. Wafer has unusable parts and they have to combine chips based on usable parts so you can get higher yield with smaller sensors. Similar thing as with CPU wafers.
 
Tim Daust said:
I thought the dragon sensors are made in house? no?
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It costs several billion dollars to have a manufacturing company capable of making something as intricate as a high-res/low-noise CMOS pickup. While Jannard has a couple of billion dollars, I tend to doubt he's willing to put that money into a CMOS plant beyond what he's already spent on the Red Company. Even Apple doesn't make their own chips (RAM or SSD) -- they buy them from a variety of companies at heavily-negotiated prices, and they're very strict on quality control.
 
There is a very limited number of manufacturers in the world willing to spend BILLIONS on the production line and the necessary R&D. For example, most of big OLED TVs sold in the world are using LG screens, including Sony, yes, LG and Panasonic. As Marc had mentioned, Apple is famous for the design of their own CPUs, last version being A10 running their iPhones and iPads, which is based on ARM architecture. Yet, even a company with $270 Billion in the bank, Apple is unwilling to spend the insanely huge amount of money and instead are using the contract manufacturers- TSM and Samsung to produce those CPUs. Interesting enough, even though Apple and Samsung are locked in the vicious legal dispute, still that doesn't preclude Apple from buying billions of dollars worth of electronic parts from Samsung. It's just business:001_smile:
So, even a small timer with a couple of billion dollars in the bank can't afford to produce quality sensors in-house. And that also includes another relatively small company-ARRI. On the other hand, Sony and Panasonic do. And so is Canon. Canon? Hm... Could they possibly make an extra few thousands very high quality sensors for another camera company?:thumbup:
 
jake blackstone said:
There is a very limited number of manufacturers in the world willing to spend BILLIONS on the production line and the necessary R&D. For example, most of big OLED TVs sold in the world are using LG screens, including Sony, yes, LG and Panasonic. As Marc had mentioned, Apple is famous for the design of their own CPUs, last version being A10 running their iPhones and iPads, which is based on ARM architecture. Yet, even a company with $270 Billion in the bank, Apple is unwilling to spend the insanely huge amount of money and instead are using the contract manufacturers- TSM and Samsung to produce those CPUs. Interesting enough, even though Apple and Samsung are locked in the vicious legal dispute, still that doesn't preclude Apple from buying billions of dollars worth of electronic parts from Samsung. It's just business:001_smile:
So, even a small timer with a couple of billion dollars in the bank can't afford to produce quality sensors in-house. And that includes ARRI. On the other hand, Sony and Panasonic does. And so is Canon. Canon? Hm... Could they possibly make an extra few thousands very high quality sensors for another camera company?:thumbup:
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I don't think Canon is making Helium....

But another company on your list...perhaps?
 
It's all conjecture. What is not in doubt is that another company stepped in and started suppling a Helium sensor reliably and in very high numbers, almost overnight, where Red can even afford to supply a temporary replacement Helium sensor cameras, as users wait for the limited supplies of Weapon sensored camera. Doing this requires a long history of sensor manufacturing and plenty of spare capacity. There are not that many companies in the world, that can do that. So, take your pick- Sony, Panasonic or Canon. I'd say Sony is out- they had a big legal skirmish with Red and they don't like each other. Panasonic sensor is very specific, as it's the only one that has two native sensitivities, which Helium clearly does not. Canon is the only mass producer, selling tens of thousands of cameras with high quality sensors. To them producing a few extra thousands of sensor would not be a big stretch. To me Canon still looks like the most likely supplier, but again, it's just all conjecture, so who knows...
 
jake blackstone said:
It's all conjecture. What is not in doubt is that another company stepped in and started suppling a Helium sensor reliably and in very high numbers, almost overnight, where Red can even afford to supply a temporary replacement Helium sensor cameras, as users wait for the limited supplies of Weapon sensored camera. Doing this requires a long history of sensor manufacturing and plenty of spare capacity. There are not that many companies in the world, that can do that. So, take your pick- Sony, Panasonic or Canon. I'd say Sony is out- they had a big legal skirmish with Red and they don't like each other. Panasonic sensor is very specific, as it's the only one that has two native sensitivities, which Helium clearly does not. Canon is the only mass producer, selling tens of thousands of cameras with high quality sensors. To them producing a few extra thousands of sensor would not be a big stretch. To me Canon still looks like the most likely supplier, but again, it's just all conjecture, so who knows...
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And the many other sensor manufacturers out there that aren't exactly direct competitors.....

Also, Helium is made of people. PEOPLE.

Kidding. But am I?
 
jake blackstone said:
It's all conjecture. What is not in doubt is that another company stepped in and started suppling a Helium sensor reliably and in very high numbers, almost overnight, where Red can even afford to supply a temporary replacement Helium sensor cameras, as users wait for the limited supplies of Weapon sensored camera. Doing this requires a long history of sensor manufacturing and plenty of spare capacity. There are not that many companies in the world, that can do that. So, take your pick- Sony, Panasonic or Canon. I'd say Sony is out- they had a big legal skirmish with Red and they don't like each other. Panasonic sensor is very specific, as it's the only one that has two native sensitivities, which Helium clearly does not. Canon is the only mass producer, selling tens of thousands of cameras with high quality sensors. To them producing a few extra thousands of sensor would not be a big stretch. To me Canon still looks like the most likely supplier, but again, it's just all conjecture, so who knows...
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So far, I'd say that Canon is the least likely candidate. Technology wise, Fujifilm, Sony, Fairchild, and Dalsa all seem like more likely candidates, and I'm sure there are a few other companies that make sensors that do custom work as well.

Fujifilm is an add duck in imaging; Fujinon lenses are amazing (Hasselblad 645 lenses, for example), and has developed some very interesting sensor designs over the years including one that went into a Nikon dSLR clone, and now the lovely sensors for its mirrorless system camera line... yet still sourced a Sony sensor for its medium format camera.
 
And all that is fascinating. But Dragon has been in production for quite a while now. I understand the Raven sized wafers possibly being thin on the ground because so many are needed for the regular and more profitable cameras but Dragon and Scarlet Dragon have been around for a while, along with the Weapons and now the Scarlet-W.

Is there not a point where successful yields improve and/or quantity of wafers being manufactured ramps up due to having a much clearer idea of the demand?

I'm not having a pop at anyone - clearly Red would be putting twice the number of Dragon cameras out the door each month and getting paid if it could.
 
I think may have been on FB that Jarred said one time it would cost too much start another production line pumping out Dragon sensors that it would drive the cost of the cameras up too much and RED doesn't want to do that.
 
size matters ;) larger the sensor harder it is to manufacture high yield defect free
Assume that is issue with Dragon VV
 
Ben Scott said:
And all that is fascinating. But Dragon has been in production for quite a while now. I understand the Raven sized wafers possibly being thin on the ground because so many are needed for the regular and more profitable cameras but Dragon and Scarlet Dragon have been around for a while, along with the Weapons and now the Scarlet-W.

Is there not a point where successful yields improve and/or quantity of wafers being manufactured ramps up due to having a much clearer idea of the demand?
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If you're Intel you can, because you have the volume + margin to be able to afford it. Red would probably have to raise its prices quite a bit to pull that off, especially with Red's volume. I got the impression from one of Jarred's posts that the Raven is barely paying for itself, which is why Red isn't able to bring on another production line just for Raven.
 
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