- Moderator
- #21
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- Apr 19, 2007
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Fun looking back at this post from 2010. Don't know all the reasons Jim made this post, but he's pointing out what the landscape was which oddly still holds relevance in modern times to an extent.
To Ash's point, cameras have become far more capable over the last decade, but also interestingly cameras that literally came out last this past year still suffer from certain things related to line skipping or binning. RED certainly made a rule book that holds merit in the professional world of imagine. The biggest change was the aggressive market and industry growth over this span of time. And I do suspect that's a bit of what that billboard was about in Hollywood regarding "that good enough wasn't good enough". That point likely is meaningless to the mass market as it stands today, but still holds a lot of weight over the last decade and even now.
Here's some interesting things about 2010 when this post was made:
- The Canon 5D MK II was released in October 2008, FF35 1080p DSLR, which also barely resolved 700 lines. Popular, I owned many, but not perfect.
- Interestingly the Nikon D90 was announced two months earlier in August 2008 with 720p and actually was the first DSLR with video.
I think Jim poked the bear a bunch back then. November 2011 was indeed when Canon and RED had their rather famous tit for tat moment when Cinema EOS launched as did the much whispered and discussed Scarlet. I was at both events and it was a moment for me where my money was going to go one way or another. Really actually one of the more exciting moments in digital cinema camera history. Lots of rumors about what Canon was going to do. Would it be 4K? Would it be full frame? RED had Epic 5K on the market at the time, which at launch price was still significantly cheaper and in many ways more ideal or better than many solutions of that era. But we also knew Canon wasn't likely diving into the higher end price point of digital cinema.
Sony announced the F3, which was an up to 29.97p fps S35 1080p camera that came in around $25K with a PL mount in 2011. Canon announced the C300 in 2011, 1080p 29.97p S35. RED in perhaps one of the best moves they could have made, ditched the idea of Scarlet smaller format 3K for the idea of a Scarlet 4K S35, though 25fps at 4K max. But it actually could do 5K 12fps for timelapse and stop motion filmmakers. The critical thing is Scarlet S35 4K was about the same approximate price of the F3 and C300 and presented, yes, internal compressed RAW recording.
On a more personal not, I was there at RED Studios Hollywood that day and was one of those first 300 pre-orders on Scarlet. Honestly if Canon had a 4K camera announced at that time frame, my money and who it was going to go to would have been far more up in the air. At this time I also just left my studio gig where film was the primary medium and all our wonderful 6K film scanners and 4K laser recorders. I needed a tool that could directly enter that sort of playing field. Truthfully RED and Arri were the only real game in town for a while with the only other playing being Kodak. Sony even accelerated their move to 4K, which previoiusly was a 2015 concept for them, but actually moved the F65's release date up to February 2011. That system btw was about $100K.
It's a fascinating thing to watch over the years to see the range of fanboyism, brand hatred, brand favoritism, etc. Especially in the face of vastly larger publicly traded companies who have very paced product timelines as that generally is the way of that world even to this day. Love or hate RED, but as a private company only focused on digital cinema cameras that allowed them to not exactly be tethered to various other restrictions the large companies exhibit. I've been around this the whole time and before it while maintaining close relationships with these companies.
Also to Ash's point, I think we're already seeing how and what things are doing with RED with their 4th generation of camera bodies as well as other manufacturers. We now have a litany of other cameras that now do feature some sort of take on compressed or uncompressed RAW or RAW-like metadata driven codecs.
RED's back to form really this generation from where I stand. Their big innovations have been obviously REDCODE RAW, but perhaps equally if not more importantly good and innovative sensor design as well as camera design at a decent price point. This pretty much is a very vibrant reality because V-Raptor 8K VV slapped a whole lot of people across the face being a VV 8K 120p camera in an era of likely more 8K 30p and 60p cameras in various format sizes. Not to mention I can buy 2-4 ktis comparatively to other cameras on the market that actually do less in most ways.
I should make a nod that tied to this industry growth has been the spawning of a whole bunch of new rental houses around the world, most came into existence actually in the last 5 years. And that's not bringing up the fascinating world of online rental entities. I'm seeing a rather interesting divide once again regarding how this industry operates and who does what and why. It was easier to spot when the industry was smaller, but it's become glaring and in 3D when you pound the pavement (or industrial carpet) of various camera prep floors.
I've been using the term dynamic for a while to describe exactly the state of the industry. I have met people who love Arri cameras who have never seen one in person. I also know people who love RED for the same reasons. I know die hard brand loyalists attached to Canon or Sony. I know many who have had even professional ties to some of those companies who have somewhat with fickle intentions have jumped ship to promote other brands. There's people making a living off of Blackmagic cameras. There's a whole segment of the industry where you won't find those on sets or in rental houses. Some can make a living shooting content on DSLRs or Mirrorless cameras. Some couldn't find a way to make any of those make them money. Wild times.
I think the weirdest aspect of any of this is peoples projections tied to the brand, the community, etc. related to all of these companies. Love or hate, or neutral, or whatever.
Filmmakers generally tend to be very passionate people at every level in the industry or even on the outskirts. Most professionals are calm and collected. The cameras are tools and the tools go to work if they are useful. Heck, a great deal of cinematographers I know don't even own cameras or barely are familiar with the market as a whole. C500 MK II came out and literally had a chat with somebody that didn't know that Canon made cinema cameras, which I at first thought was snark, but because his rental house didn't stock them they didn't exist in his world.
I'm on the far end of that spectrum where pretty much no new camera goes unnoticed or untested because the weird work I tend to get up and where any of those may or may not be up to the task. Though I think most would perceive me as one of the more vocal RED advocates, the cameras themselves haven't been what gets me the world. Not directly that is. The images that come off them do as well as the flexibility of the camera platform. It's as simple as that. The only times where RED hasn't been ideal is when a production is A-Cam'n off of Arri for instance and want stuff shot in ARRIRAW due to workflow and all that. Even still, often things like Monstro's 8K have been useful for VFX and plates on some of those projects.
Don't really care how they want me to bake the bread, as long as they do call me to bake the bread I guess. But I also find it super bloody important to own a few good ovens that can bake a decent loaf.
To Ash's point, cameras have become far more capable over the last decade, but also interestingly cameras that literally came out last this past year still suffer from certain things related to line skipping or binning. RED certainly made a rule book that holds merit in the professional world of imagine. The biggest change was the aggressive market and industry growth over this span of time. And I do suspect that's a bit of what that billboard was about in Hollywood regarding "that good enough wasn't good enough". That point likely is meaningless to the mass market as it stands today, but still holds a lot of weight over the last decade and even now.
Here's some interesting things about 2010 when this post was made:
- The Canon 5D MK II was released in October 2008, FF35 1080p DSLR, which also barely resolved 700 lines. Popular, I owned many, but not perfect.
- Interestingly the Nikon D90 was announced two months earlier in August 2008 with 720p and actually was the first DSLR with video.
I think Jim poked the bear a bunch back then. November 2011 was indeed when Canon and RED had their rather famous tit for tat moment when Cinema EOS launched as did the much whispered and discussed Scarlet. I was at both events and it was a moment for me where my money was going to go one way or another. Really actually one of the more exciting moments in digital cinema camera history. Lots of rumors about what Canon was going to do. Would it be 4K? Would it be full frame? RED had Epic 5K on the market at the time, which at launch price was still significantly cheaper and in many ways more ideal or better than many solutions of that era. But we also knew Canon wasn't likely diving into the higher end price point of digital cinema.
Sony announced the F3, which was an up to 29.97p fps S35 1080p camera that came in around $25K with a PL mount in 2011. Canon announced the C300 in 2011, 1080p 29.97p S35. RED in perhaps one of the best moves they could have made, ditched the idea of Scarlet smaller format 3K for the idea of a Scarlet 4K S35, though 25fps at 4K max. But it actually could do 5K 12fps for timelapse and stop motion filmmakers. The critical thing is Scarlet S35 4K was about the same approximate price of the F3 and C300 and presented, yes, internal compressed RAW recording.
On a more personal not, I was there at RED Studios Hollywood that day and was one of those first 300 pre-orders on Scarlet. Honestly if Canon had a 4K camera announced at that time frame, my money and who it was going to go to would have been far more up in the air. At this time I also just left my studio gig where film was the primary medium and all our wonderful 6K film scanners and 4K laser recorders. I needed a tool that could directly enter that sort of playing field. Truthfully RED and Arri were the only real game in town for a while with the only other playing being Kodak. Sony even accelerated their move to 4K, which previoiusly was a 2015 concept for them, but actually moved the F65's release date up to February 2011. That system btw was about $100K.
It's a fascinating thing to watch over the years to see the range of fanboyism, brand hatred, brand favoritism, etc. Especially in the face of vastly larger publicly traded companies who have very paced product timelines as that generally is the way of that world even to this day. Love or hate RED, but as a private company only focused on digital cinema cameras that allowed them to not exactly be tethered to various other restrictions the large companies exhibit. I've been around this the whole time and before it while maintaining close relationships with these companies.
Also to Ash's point, I think we're already seeing how and what things are doing with RED with their 4th generation of camera bodies as well as other manufacturers. We now have a litany of other cameras that now do feature some sort of take on compressed or uncompressed RAW or RAW-like metadata driven codecs.
RED's back to form really this generation from where I stand. Their big innovations have been obviously REDCODE RAW, but perhaps equally if not more importantly good and innovative sensor design as well as camera design at a decent price point. This pretty much is a very vibrant reality because V-Raptor 8K VV slapped a whole lot of people across the face being a VV 8K 120p camera in an era of likely more 8K 30p and 60p cameras in various format sizes. Not to mention I can buy 2-4 ktis comparatively to other cameras on the market that actually do less in most ways.
I should make a nod that tied to this industry growth has been the spawning of a whole bunch of new rental houses around the world, most came into existence actually in the last 5 years. And that's not bringing up the fascinating world of online rental entities. I'm seeing a rather interesting divide once again regarding how this industry operates and who does what and why. It was easier to spot when the industry was smaller, but it's become glaring and in 3D when you pound the pavement (or industrial carpet) of various camera prep floors.
I've been using the term dynamic for a while to describe exactly the state of the industry. I have met people who love Arri cameras who have never seen one in person. I also know people who love RED for the same reasons. I know die hard brand loyalists attached to Canon or Sony. I know many who have had even professional ties to some of those companies who have somewhat with fickle intentions have jumped ship to promote other brands. There's people making a living off of Blackmagic cameras. There's a whole segment of the industry where you won't find those on sets or in rental houses. Some can make a living shooting content on DSLRs or Mirrorless cameras. Some couldn't find a way to make any of those make them money. Wild times.
I think the weirdest aspect of any of this is peoples projections tied to the brand, the community, etc. related to all of these companies. Love or hate, or neutral, or whatever.
Filmmakers generally tend to be very passionate people at every level in the industry or even on the outskirts. Most professionals are calm and collected. The cameras are tools and the tools go to work if they are useful. Heck, a great deal of cinematographers I know don't even own cameras or barely are familiar with the market as a whole. C500 MK II came out and literally had a chat with somebody that didn't know that Canon made cinema cameras, which I at first thought was snark, but because his rental house didn't stock them they didn't exist in his world.
I'm on the far end of that spectrum where pretty much no new camera goes unnoticed or untested because the weird work I tend to get up and where any of those may or may not be up to the task. Though I think most would perceive me as one of the more vocal RED advocates, the cameras themselves haven't been what gets me the world. Not directly that is. The images that come off them do as well as the flexibility of the camera platform. It's as simple as that. The only times where RED hasn't been ideal is when a production is A-Cam'n off of Arri for instance and want stuff shot in ARRIRAW due to workflow and all that. Even still, often things like Monstro's 8K have been useful for VFX and plates on some of those projects.
Don't really care how they want me to bake the bread, as long as they do call me to bake the bread I guess. But I also find it super bloody important to own a few good ovens that can bake a decent loaf.
