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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why Canon sucks balls.

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Karl,

I'd say what you're seeing is blow-back from the "OMG, 7D totally R0X0RS! All you RED One owners are gonna feel totally PWND when you see the awesome shallow DoF!" posts which recently erupted on REDuser like mushrooms after a spring rain.

But don't kid yourself: the aliasing shown by all of the current crop of 'HDSLRs' is a serious impediment to their motion shooting. You might be able to minimize it by using very old, soft lenses as a kind of ad hoc OLPF filter, but if you let it creep into your footage it's going to be there for good (as the frames upthread seem amply to prove).
 
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Karl Lohninger said:
20.000 bucks will give you a barely working RED and will NOT get you a working or any other Scarlet. A Scarlet does not exist - not even on paper. What is you folks smoking that you keep talking about that?
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That's why I was using the "will-future". Non-smoker, thank you.

BArely working?

Red One Body is 17500$
Batteries + charger: 1450$
Cheapest monitor: 1,700$

That is already more than 20000 and we still don't have a lens or media to record on.

Other than that I was merely stating that the Canon bodies are still-cameras by their formfactor. If they want to be used as videocameras, you will need to spend a little more on accessories.

Considering all in favor of RED being fan-boys... well if you want to have it that way, I'll be proud to be called a fan-boy.
 
P.S: @ Euginia: The initial "trolling" was a criticism against Canons market policy. Announcing a firmware update for the first half of 2010, 18 months after its release, 2 months after the Canon 7D was announced (and sold) with "finally 24/25 fps! HD-Video" is screwing the customers in my opinion.
 
Well Red One is on build 21... so I'm not sure about that....
 
My 1st post has a bit of a harsh tone. It isn't because of Red but because of Canon. They have fooled a lot of people into spending their money on fake specs. What does "real 1080P" mean? It isn't more than 1440 resolution. And talk about drinking the coolaid, Canon has passed it out to literaly millions, me included. Red is new thinking and a garage operation with a lot to learn but at least they are honest. Jim admits they knew nothing when they started. Canon knows everything including how to pretend to be professional video equipment. They hire Vincent to make it look like you can use this on a pro shoot. Do you think Canon tells their customers that his video was processed with NR and effects? The main difference between Canon and Red is HYPE and Red isn't the one trying to fool an industry. Canon is promoting these cameras as professional tools and they just are not.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Yes, it is amazing that even after such compression you can still see THE SENSOR shortcomings. The moire and aliasing pictured above are defects of the way Canon scans the sensor, not the compression for the web.
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That's right. But the still shown in this thread is from a "sequence" exactly 5 frames or less than 0.2s long and denouncing the entire clip for this is crazy.
I was surprised how I had not seen the artefact when watching the video. The person who extracted the image just wanted to show that the 1D IV also has the aliasing problem. This comes as no surprise if you see that the electronics is essentially the same as 7D (dual DIGIC IV), in contrast to a rumored future camera that would be capable of true pixel binning.

So yes, there is aliasing, and yes, it can ruin some of your footage and it will do so when you do not expect it, and yes, it is extremely annoying. Still, it is much less of an obstacle than I originally expected it to be.

Can someone please explain to me what is wrong with the other frame except that it is not sharp (motion blurr) and that it shows characteristics of street light (pulsed, to be seen for example by the multiple "copies" of the hand)?
 
Phil Jordan said:
What does "real 1080P" mean?
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Ask Panasonic. The HVX was "Real 1080P" the day it came out. I know, because it said so right on the box. And prices on P2 are coming down soon. LOL. It'll be a long time before I believe what any manufacturer says about their own gear.

I take all this with a grain of reality. There's plenty of RED stuff that has devalued more than any DSLR body so the argument that the big guys come out with new cameras all the time so we should hate them doesn't impress me much. Complaining that they hype and market their stuff is probably a pretty poor argument too - lol.

All I know is every little no budget student/grip/up and comer I know is talking about the 7D right now.
 
Joel Kaye said:
There's plenty of RED stuff that has devalued more than any DSLR body so the argument that the big guys come out with new cameras all the time so we should hate them doesn't impress me much.
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I've got a red shoulder mount ($550 list) and bottom plate ($600) I'm trying to sell. doesn't seem like I can get even half price here on REDUSER. If I ebay auction them I think I'll lose more than I did on the last two Canon bodies I sold combined. RED doesn't suck, Canon doesn't suck. :biggrin:
 
Michael maybe we should tell Jim he doesn't have to offer a trade in program and just do it like Canon since everyone seems to be ok with that.
 
Phil Jordan said:
They sell you a 5DII that shoots 30fps and not 24/25fps which is what you want. Make it with H264 and line skipping, aliasing, moire and compression issues.

Then they sell you a 7D that does 24/25fps which is what you wanted but still make it H264 with line skipping, aliasing, moire and compression issues.

Then announce the 1DIV. Make it with H264 with line skipping, aliasing, moire and compression issues but shoots ISO64,000. $5,000
At the same time announce that the original 5DII will now have a firmware update to shoot 24/25fps and piss off all those that thought they had to buy a 7D to get that and tell you that moire is the new look of the future.

Then come out with a 1DsIV that shoots 24/25fps but has uncompressed 1080P output with line skipping, moire and aliases. $8000.

Then announce the 5DIII that still sucks balls and all of this in 12 months time.

Buy a Canon and realize you didn't get what you wanted. Throw it away and try again with the next new model. Repeat every three months.
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Did I miss something or don't all of these cameras come from the "stills" division of Canon? Aren't all of these things pretty well known and did someone con you into buying one? Doesn't Canon have a video division that might do better for some of these issues regarding motion pictures? Has either division promoted its offerings as high end cinema cameras?

These cameras you mention are stills cameras with limited video capability that meets some peoples needs. Will you be as quick to trash RED if they bring out the DSMC Epic with limited or no autofocus capability and other common DSLR functions because the basic style of the camera - i.e. no mirror/prism system - makes it very difficult to do?

RED and Canon are approaching this from different directions. One (Epic) will probably lean toward doing motion very well with limited stills capability at a pretty high price point ($28K) the others do stills very well with limited motion capability at a very low (relatively speaking) price point ($1700).

Bottom line is it is difficult to do all of those things in one style of camera. But in some ways it will be easier to improve the motion capability of a mirror/prism DSLR camera - because it mainly just requires the ongoing improvement of the sensor/recording electronics - than it will be to improve the stills autofocus capability of a modular "video-type" camera like the epic that does not have the mirror/prism optical viewfinder due to the way the better autofocus systems usually work. Plus there will always be some advantages for both stills and motion pictures to being able to visually look through the lens with an optical viewfinder, which from Jim's public statements will be quite expensive on Epic if it is done at all.

Again, RED doesn't suck, Canon doesn't suck - they are approaching this from two different directions. Your choice will depend on what works best for you. I suspect I will own both an Epic-X and a 7D.

Phil Jordan said:
Michael maybe we should tell Jim he doesn't have to offer a trade in program and just do it like Canon since everyone seems to be ok with that.
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That's a whole 'nuther long discussion. But there is a big difference between a $1700 camera that is fully functional out of the box and a $17500 (plus a few$K in acc.) camera that has been an ongoing development program - and I believe Jim publicly has stated that the original philosophy of "making obsolescence obsolete" was not really feasible with the R1 platform, which in part led to the trade-in offer. Again RED doesn't suck, Canon doesn't suck. One is a startup company with 1 camera. The other is a very mature company with dozens of cameras, market segments, etc.

PS (whispers) Can I get full trade in on the shoulder mount/bottom plate? :biggrin:
 
Phil Jordan said:
Michael maybe we should tell Jim he doesn't have to offer a trade in program and just do it like Canon since everyone seems to be ok with that.
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I guess you didn't read why there is a trade up program for Red ONE owners? "Obsolescence Obsolete" simply did not pan out the way they had hoped with the ONE and the modular system of Epic/Scarlet is the full realization of that promise. Don't expect to get trade in credit on your Epic or Scarlet brains in the future.
 
Guys, I get the problems that these cams have. I would have liked zebra, audio gain control myself too, and the fixing of the aliasing. But for what they cost, and what else you can buy with the same money, they are doing their job fine.

There was an article a few months ago about gadgets, and how we live in a society where "good-enough" is enough. The same applies here. The consumer compares the footage of a 5D/7D and an AVCHD camera that sells at the same price, and concludes that the 5D/7D looks better with its shallow DoF and it is also a good stills camera. And then, he goes on to his wife, and says, "honey, I think I will sell that HF10 AVCHD camera and our Panasonic LX3 stills cam we bought last spring, and we will get the 7D. This way, we have a single device that does both amazing stills and video. It's a better value, and easier to carry around when we go to trips". And so the wife falls for that, and there you have the couple with their brand new toy.

The problem in this board is that you are looking at these products from the wrong angle. You are looking at them from the top-bottom angle, rather than the bottom-top one. What I mean is, you already own or rent a RED, or a Viper or whatever, so you are accustomed to certain features, or quality. Unfortunately, the 5D/7D/1D are not products for the likes of you. It's a product for the bottom feeders of the filmmaking community, people who are just enthusiasts, people who might not have the cash to get a RED, or even an EX1. For them, upgrading from an HF10 to the 7D will make all the difference in the world. And it will be better. And it will be cheap. And it will do the job.

I have been a tech reviewer of gadgets for many years now, and one thing I have learned during my time doing so, is that I have to review an item in its own merits. I can't compare the Sony Ericsson W810 with an iPhone, since they are not only different in many ways, but they don't even target the same kind of consumers. Same in our case, each to its own. If you want to compare something, compare the 7D to the HF-S10, because they have the same price and attract the same kind of consumer. But not the RED. Because if you do, then you ought to compare frames from the HF-S10 to the RED too. Otherwise, you are just nitpicking around here for your own good.

Some will say, "but, the 7D has more in common in terms of look and functionality with the RED rather than the HF-S10, that's why we compare it to the RED". But in reality, this doesn't matter when the price difference between the two products is so huge. If the 7D was to cost $15,000, by all means, compare it to the RED. But it costs a fraction of that, so it's a product for a different slice of the consumer market. And for that market, "good enough", is good enough.
 
The common to all these posts is 'buyer beware'. People want different things out of their experience. I have two very early Red 1's. I have a Canon 5D Mk2. good for me. I love them both. They do very different jobs.

I can shoot stills underwater and do a little video too, WOW! that is truly revolutionary. I don't have to take a movie camera and housing underwater with me. I shoot commercials on Red. Do they mix? mmmm not really.

Canon are improving their line of products. They are a very large existing firm with a large overhead and client base and thay develop as they have been for a while now. It sucks that they sell you what you don't really want but hey you could have said no.

Red are however revolutionary. They keep promises and moreover promise you an end user experience. They are a little beyond commerce. Their pitch is a brave new world and we are getting what we want, upgrades, advancements and new technology with built in obsolescence.

Don't hate the old guys, love the new guys... vote with your feet.
 
Tico Llaurador said:
To summarize this thread... "Canon sucks balls."

Yeah... pretty much.

:cursing:
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Well, at least you considered this post for a while before you answered. And furthermore, in answering your post enlightened and furthered our knowledge. You are truly an upstanding member of the Reduser community.
 
IMVHO the canon cams seem to have some advantages - and i say this as a 2 camera red owner - they are light, portable and if you respect their limits they can deliver some good stuff.

I never understand why people are evangelical about technology.

The video stills posted in the earlier sections seem to be 6400 asa images - well since we are apples for apples kinda people (another overused cliche) why not compare the Red at the same iso (6400) and maybe the differences between the two cams become a little less glaring than something which is shot at baseline 320 on a Red camera.

In short if you shoot canon - play to the strengths of the system - Red has it's issues too. Thats part of being a cameraman - learn the limits and how to overcome them - because when the day technology can do it for you is the day you're out of a job.
 
James,

A light in the darkness. You would never take the two into the same arena. Each has it's place. They are both useful tools. Give a Red to a news correspondent in Afghanistan, give a 5D MKII to a DP shooting a commercial surrounded by paying clients and see what they say.
 
I have been a Canon DSLR user for a long time. Switched from Nikon to Canon way back because Canon's digital program seemed to be ahead of Nikon's at the time.

This is a tool just like anything else. Exploit it for its strengths and compensate for the weaknesses.

These are fantastic still cameras that have changed the photo game big time. The cameras don't cost more than the previous same class models and have (usually) dramatic performance increases. It would be great if like the film cameras the film is what changed and you could get years out of a body with improved quality from a new stock - but it's not. The trade offs are great, at least for me. Instant feedback if I got the shot, etc. One could argue that the end of film stock and lab fees compensates for the prices. God knows I've sent a lot of cash on that. There are also plenty of costs with the digital world...

My point is that if you look at this like this is an improved still camera that has a "new" feature of video capture... cool... you'll be thrilled. Chances are really good if you look to buy a really good video camera right now you'll buy what you need. And a really good still camera you'll buy that. Time will tell if the 2 merge successfully in all ways anytime soon.
 
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