WHY!!!! are people still using color baked DPX's F&%*@#%*#K!

[Mark Toia]

I've got 4 jobs going through (large) post houses in 3 different countries at the moment and I'm highly confused why they are all still converting my R3Ds into colour baked DPXs of the color settings I shot on the day... not one of them are grading from the r3ds directly.
Just pisses me off!

Usually I do all my post in house, but these particular jobs I had to farm out due to being to busy to push through internally or just to much 3d for us to do in house. So you give it to the big boys... So I thought.

What we do in house is we grade from the R3D's directly. Done!!! not a DPX in sight! ... Conforms done in seconds..
We delete all the meta data shot on set and create a really clean, white balance neutral REDCOLOR2 - REDLOGFILM base and grade from that point onwards... perfect, it does not get any better! so so much RAW information to get the best images possible. Simple, easy, fast!

If I get stuck OS I use my Hotel ROOM workflow going the PRORES way... same thing, we make colour balanced perfect REDLOGFILM pro res files and just grade away... perfect. Almost as good as working from the RAW files them selves... Simple, easy, fast!
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Car).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Face).mov

Then the post house ecperts tell me what I shot will take them over 2 days to transcode!!! ???? I say "WHAT"!!! 2 days! your kidding? I can transcode at home in 2 hours !, you don't have a RED ROCKET? in your multi million dollar facility I ask ??? they say... "whats a RED ROCKET"... OMG !!!... my mouth drops to the floor.
So why don't you just conform the EDL in the Resolve, grade the plates while your there..? Oh no they say, we will send the colourist the DPX's at the end of the job to grade!.. OMG!

So being the client I made them do it my way... with everyone going WOW! that is so much easier! and faster! (and better grading for me)... JEZ.. why so hard!

I get into one of the post houses yesterday and the grade looks to crushed... I ask for them to pull out more info in the blacks they can't they say..??? I say why not, They say because you shot RED and RED has no latitude... OMG!!!, About now I want to get physical !!

It's like a time warp!!! Show me the RAW files I say!. I quickly find out they are grading a DPX (non log looking file) with a grade of what we shot on set or worse... its already to contrasty and the exposure is down a little bit so they cannot pullout anything, becuase they are not working form the RAW R3D's, What a complete joke !

I show them in there own flames the RED r3d settings and how they can work and conform form RAW R3D's directly, but still they tell me that DPX's are better... Subsequently I remove the job from them there and then and take it back in house.

Oh What a day!

Why is RED so easy for some and so fricken hard for others !!!... Seriously.

I now realise why these cheap Canons, not so cheap Alexas are so popular... its because DUMB people can use them and post them...

REDLOG - 4k PRORES straight out the camera... (+ R3D's) - Thats my future.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

I feel your pain Mark...it drives nuts how many time we deal with so called high end editing and finishing houses that know nothing about the r3d workflow and its advantages.
We are constantly being asked to transcode our r3d to prores or DPX because they either are using antiquitated editing system like FCP or have no idea how to deal with r3d or have no red rocket. Yet they will charge you premium rates because they are "high end".... You'd expect them to at least keep up with technology and knowledge. It's not like red is a new phenomenon....been out for 5 years now!

 

[M Most]

There are two primary reasons for transcoding prior to color grading. One is playback performance, and the other is integration with non-Red sources (i.e., visual effects, stock shots, material shot with different cameras like Canons, GoPros, and the like). Even with a Red Rocket card, the performance of most high end grading systems is superior with sources that do not need to be decompressed or debayered on the fly. In cases where clients expect to see flawless playback, every bit of playback performance is welcome. And in most features or television series episodes shot primarily on Red, there is usually a fair amount of non-Red material that must be integrated and matched. Hence the use of DPX sequences for the final grading.

Now, as to your other points, they are very valid. In almost all cases I know of, at least in Los Angeles, when DPX sequences are used they are created the way you have described, by doing a transcode using either Redcolor or Redcolor2 (a number of colorists prefer the higher default saturation level of Redcolor) and RedlogFilm, and put through a proper processing path for that format. In truth, there is really little significant difference between pulling the R3D files "live" and working with a DPX sequence that has been transcoded using the same SDK settings. The primary difference is that you can't lower exposure and you can't alter color temperature prior to the debayer step. But if you hold on to the R3d files, you can go back to them when necessary for those specific changes. What you do get, though, is better playback performance, which is arguably just as important in many cases, and consistency with things like VFX shots that are delivered in log format.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

I totally understand you. When I show my clients how easy the workflow is they think I'm doing something wrong. They are used to wasting money and time in big post houses. I think a lot of misinformation is holding many clients back from totally going the RED way. RED should put in a DVD of the workflow with every camera they sell.

 

[Philipp Straehl]

yeah this is terrible. On the other hand, I think you simply expect too much from people. They are not stupid, and some of them didn't follow the development of Red's new workflow. You can't blame them.

If you provide your files in the r3d format, it is important to add these informations to the client, maybe even asking if they have the hardware to take advantage of RAW files.

 

[Mark Toia]

You a smart man Mr M Most....

I have to apologise for my Rant... I just needed to Vent.

At the end of the day, I just want people to work from the best base (which is either REDCOLOR or RED COLOR 2 + REDLOGFILM, if they want to go to DPX then fine, but start from at least these color settings and Ill be a happy man.

Regarding real time playback ? ... I get real time play back when grading R3D's in Resolve? - Then I push the graded conform to FLAME.

Real time Transcoding is not really and issue if these poeple new a RED ROCKET existed.

Thanks for your reply M

There are two primary reasons for transcoding prior to color grading. One is playback performance, and the other is integration with non-Red sources (i.e., visual effects, stock shots, material shot with different cameras like Canons, GoPros, and the like). Even with a Red Rocket card, the performance of most high end grading systems is superior with sources that do not need to be decompressed or debayered on the fly. In cases where clients expect to see flawless playback, every bit of playback performance is welcome. And in most features or television series episodes shot primarily on Red, there is usually a fair amount of non-Red material that must be integrated and matched. Hence the use of DPX sequences for the final grading.

Now, as to your other points, they are very valid. In almost all cases I know of, at least in Los Angeles, when DPX sequences are used they are created the way you have described, by doing a transcode using either Redcolor or Redcolor2 (a number of colorists prefer the higher default saturation level of Redcolor) and RedlogFilm, and put through a proper processing path for that format. In truth, there is really little significant difference between pulling the R3D files "live" and working with a DPX sequence that has been transcoded using the same SDK settings. The primary difference is that you can't lower exposure and you can't alter color temperature prior to the debayer step. But if you hold on to the R3d files, you can go back to them when necessary for those specific changes. What you do get, though, is better playback performance, which is arguably just as important in many cases, and consistency with things like VFX shots that are delivered in log format.

 

[Mark Toia]

With every job I give to a post house now, I think Ill send a small questionnaire...

1. How do you transcode R3D's
2. Can you grade real time from R3D's
3. Can you conform directly from R3D's
4. Do you use REDCOLOR2 / REDLOGFILM colour settings when grading

That should do it. )))

Oh and yes, my expectations are very high, especially when I paying over 300k for post production.

yeah this is terrible. On the other hand, I think you simply expect too much from people. They are not stupid, and some of them didn't follow the development of Red's new workflow. You can't blame them.

If you provide your files in the r3d format, it is important to add these informations to the client, maybe even asking if they have the hardware to take advantage of RAW files.

 

[Sergio Perez]

You a smart man Mr M Most....

I have to apologise for my Rant... I just needed to Vent.

At the end of the day, I just want people to work from the best base (which is either REDCOLOR or RED COLOR 2 + REDLOGFILM, if they want to go to DPX then fine, but start from at least these color settings and Ill be a happy man.

Regarding real time playback ? ... I get real time play back when grading R3D's in Resolve? - Then I push the graded conform to FLAME.

Real time Transcoding is not really and issue if these poeple new a RED ROCKET existed.

Thanks for your reply M

They just don't see the need of the rocket and don't understand the power of raw. For them it's all about the previous film workflow, and LOG is probably the furthest they can go in their workflow. Mr. Cioni's work on Tatoo should be an example to all about 4k workflow...

 

[M Most]

Regarding real time playback ? ... I get real time play back when grading R3D's in Resolve? - Then I push the graded conform to FLAME.

Generally you do get real time playback, but if you're playing back an hour long television episode, or 5 or 6 reels of a movie, the chances of having a "hiccup" during playback are considerably higher when you're going through additional hardware like a Rocket card - not to mention that Rocket cards sometimes have hiccups themselves (I've had that happen, especially with Epic footage, on numerous occasions). Minimizing the processes being done in real time always helps when you're trying to achieve the best playback performance, even if it isn't always that significant on shorter segments.

 

[M Most]

They just don't see the need of the rocket and don't understand the power of raw. For them it's all about the previous film workflow, and LOG is probably the furthest they can go in their workflow. Mr. Cioni's work on Tatoo should be an example to all about 4k workflow...

In case you're not aware, on the major features that Lightiron has done DI work on, they were in almost all cases done with DPX transcodes, for exactly the reasons I mentioned earlier. So if you're looking for an example.....

 

[David Battistella]

Mark

Expand your roster to creative people using new tools and flexible workflows without being chained to millions of dollars in hardware and overhead. There are people who understand they way you are and the way you work, just by being here with you on REDuser.

Often the answers are right in front of you.

I have to ask.

Why do you insist on taking he work to these houses when you know that there is another way and you could work with exceptional, like minded people and forge new, modern dynamic global working relationships?


David

 

[Mark Toia]

I have to ask.

Why do you insist on taking he work to these houses when you know that there is another way and you could work with exceptional, like minded people and forge new, modern dynamic global working relationships?

David

Hi David,
Because they have an exceptional 3d department... no other reason.

If the job had minimal or no 3d... I would just do the whole gig in house.

And thanks ))

 

[David Mullen ASC]

For various reasons, "maximum achievable picture quality" is not always at the top of the list when making post decisions, it gets weighed against other costs and/or time restrictions, plus it's not always the highest priority with some producers, production companies, and distributors. And it's not just a post issue, it starts in pre-production. You don't always rent the best locations possible, you don't even go to the best city to shoot possible, you don't get the best actors in the world, you don't always hire the best crews possible, you don't get the best lenses possible, on and on and on. From Day One, for most productions, it's a process of minimizing the damage caused by an endless series of small and large compromises. And yes, some decisions are less justifiable than others, some are even downright stupid.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

It's very easy for streamlined independent workflows to embrace new ways of post-production for specific tools and projects. I have been using R3Ds directly since 2009 myself. But in an established post house it's a fair bit more complicated. There is a lot of capital and knowledge invested into a certain standard process that is commonly shared by a variety of tools and projects with a range of services - from editing to grading to visual effects. Certain compromises worth making are made along the way. It is probably not as easy to move to a new method of working as we might imagine. But with time, it will happen, surely.

In any case, DPX are much better than lossy codecs like ProRes. Of course, 4K+ DPXs are huge, which is why OpenEXR is the way to go where native R3Ds aren't an option.

 

[Mark Toia]

For various reasons, "maximum achievable picture quality" is not always at the top of the list when making post decisions, it gets weighed against other costs and/or time restrictions, plus it's not always the highest priority with some producers, production companies, and distributors. And it's not just a post issue, it starts in pre-production. You don't always rent the best locations possible, you don't even go to the best city to shoot possible, you don't get the best actors in the world, you don't always hire the best crews possible, you don't get the best lenses possible, on and on and on. From Day One, for most productions, it's a process of minimizing the damage caused by an endless series of small and large compromises. And yes, some decisions are less justifiable than others, some are even downright stupid.

If I could fit that all on a T shirt David, I would were it to meetings.

Thanks for the perspective.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I've got 4 jobs going through (large) post houses in 3 different countries at the moment and I'm highly confused why they are all still converting my R3Ds into colour baked DPXs of the color settings I shot on the day... not one of them are grading from the r3ds directly.
Just pisses me off!

Usually I do all my post in house, but these particular jobs I had to farm out due to being to busy to push through internally or just to much 3d for us to do in house. So you give it to the big boys... So I thought.

What we do in house is we grade from the R3D's directly. Done!!! not a DPX in sight! ... Conforms done in seconds..
We delete all the meta data shot on set and create a really clean, white balance neutral REDCOLOR2 - REDLOGFILM base and grade from that point onwards... perfect, it does not get any better! so so much RAW information to get the best images possible. Simple, easy, fast!

If I get stuck OS I use my Hotel ROOM workflow going the PRORES way... same thing, we make colour balanced perfect REDLOGFILM pro res files and just grade away... perfect. Almost as good as working from the RAW files them selves... Simple, easy, fast!
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Car).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Face).mov

Then the post house ecperts tell me what I shot will take them over 2 days to transcode!!! ???? I say "WHAT"!!! 2 days! your kidding? I can transcode at home in 2 hours !, you don't have a RED ROCKET? in your multi million dollar facility I ask ??? they say... "whats a RED ROCKET"... OMG !!!... my mouth drops to the floor.
So why don't you just conform the EDL in the Resolve, grade the plates while your there..? Oh no they say, we will send the colourist the DPX's at the end of the job to grade!.. OMG!

So being the client I made them do it my way... with everyone going WOW! that is so much easier! and faster! (and better grading for me)... JEZ.. why so hard!

I get into one of the post houses yesterday and the grade looks to crushed... I ask for them to pull out more info in the blacks they can't they say..??? I say why not, They say because you shot RED and RED has no latitude... OMG!!!, About now I want to get physical !!

It's like a time warp!!! Show me the RAW files I say!. I quickly find out they are grading a DPX (non log looking file) with a grade of what we shot on set or worse... its already to contrasty and the exposure is down a little bit so they cannot pullout anything, becuase they are not working form the RAW R3D's, What a complete joke !

I show them in there own flames the RED r3d settings and how they can work and conform form RAW R3D's directly, but still they tell me that DPX's are better... Subsequently I remove the job from them there and then and take it back in house.

Oh What a day!

Why is RED so easy for some and so fricken hard for others !!!... Seriously.

I now realise why these cheap Canons, not so cheap Alexas are so popular... its because DUMB people can use them and post them...

REDLOG - 4k PRORES straight out the camera... (+ R3D's) - Thats my future.

Agree totally,
Some will even say they need to transfer down to HDCAMSR before they grade...
We run a post facility primarily even though it's a small one. And we trough out our VTR's a while back, people did think it was a "money issue". But for me, the writing was on the wall since long back, files is the way of the future and it for sure will not be DPX or DNG or Tiff or any such image sequence file format... (It's also a slowdown to read separate frames) It will for sure be something that holds a lot more info and that works as a container for each specific clip that can rip out proxies from the main file on the go... Kodak invented it in Cineon, They thought it was a dead horse but I could allready back then see those Cineon rolls as "that's how it's all going to be"... Now 15 years later we got r3d but post producers and post people are too deep into old investments...

A few years back we shot on film in LA the rushes was going to Syndicate LA (funny enough we got nothing to do with them) and I asked then for process 444 files with a technical grade because it was all in a rush. No time for selected takes etc.

So the film producer call the telecine house and they say that transferring to Quicktime would take 2 days extra and cost about 6700USD more... Since they got to render the files... Thats a bit amazing since allready then I had my MXO2 for my laptop and could do process HD 4444 on the fly and that equipment cost les than half what they wanted not for the actuall transfer but the extra cost for going quicktime... crazy.

Found a guy with a telecine at home living in the hills that did the tech grade and transfer over night for less than a 3:rd of the cost...

It's strange. we got the rocket but conforming in flame 2012 is like a breeze and all the red raw is there until the work is finished if wanted. Making a batch setup for each clip makes it possible to grade and work with infinite power windows keys etc and then in the end if wanted it's very easy to see how it would look with a little lower iso different resolution, white balance, more exposure or such. To me noise reduction and cleaning up skin tones etc works better in flame 2012 than any other software available, but then again you can not have old farts holding the pen that does not know whats what since Donky Kong was released they all still play monopoly. Send me some r3d files of the tricker kind and I show you what I mean. Rendering r3d files in flame 2012 is quick it does not feel like 5 k files at all more like butter...

 

[David Battistella]

Hi David,
Because they have an exceptional 3d department... no other reason.

If the job had minimal or no 3d... I would just do the whole gig in house.

And thanks ))

In that case it makes complete sense.

Thank you!!!! ))))

 

[Bob Gundu]

+1.

If I could fit that all on a T shirt David, I would were it to meetings.

Thanks for the perspective.

 

[Björn Benckert]

For various reasons, "maximum achievable picture quality" is not always at the top of the list when making post decisions, it gets weighed against other costs and/or time restrictions, plus it's not always the highest priority with some producers, production companies, and distributors. And it's not just a post issue, it starts in pre-production. You don't always rent the best locations possible, you don't even go to the best city to shoot possible, you don't get the best actors in the world, you don't always hire the best crews possible, you don't get the best lenses possible, on and on and on. From Day One, for most productions, it's a process of minimizing the damage caused by an endless series of small and large compromises. And yes, some decisions are less justifiable than others, some are even downright stupid.

You are right Mr Mullen, they are downright stupid. We bought a red rocket raid with 4 tb. That and a Resolve Davinchi setup cost less to buy than what most grading studios charge in less than 3 days. And the only reason why they can do so is because that is what it used to cost when a Spirit cost about 2 million USD and a resolve system cost about 100k USD. Now that is not the case any more and instead of adapting and selling of their old gear and provide their clients with the new good tools for less they hold on to the Spirit and sit there and grade digital with a sour face since people find them as expensive and slow. So it is quite abvious film is going digital and that will force a big change trough the post industry. Some will adapt and move forward and some will go the same route as kodak.. Do not take me wrong I like film a lot but I think dying for this old format is a bit overdue. So my advice is, to everybody that want to stay afloat and do well in post is the following:

First of all:
Get out of the lab process.
1.Dump your VTR's since even the latest and greatest are nothing worth in a very short future. And if you keep them they will hold you back.
2.Get rid of your telecine. Even if it makes money you are better of without, holding on to it will make you think backwards.
3 Rip out your video patch panel and everything that has to do with BNC video and such. Then you are clean it will feel very refreshing, all data from that point.
4.For the little money you gained from getting rid of the above. Buy the following: Heavy multi CPU workstations, a good super fast SAN network. Red rockets for everybody....

If you play along those four rules I think you will have a prosperius future, on the other hand if you hesitate on one of the above you will find your business to belong to the past. Simple as that four rules that is all.

If you still have money left over from doing the above (which is very possible) Buy an Epic and or Scarlet.. or even an Alexa. Learn the complete workflow, enhance it and provide camera / DIT service together with your post solutions. Do not sit and be sour since nobody wants to pay for your scanner. That time belong to the past.

We have followed the 4 steps above and it's very much like pouring rocket fuel on a spark...

 

[Björn Benckert]

Mark, why not grade it and then give the shots to the 3D guys as graded DPX sequences divided in folders shot by shot with reference low res quicktime and a XML to go with it. Then you get the most out of the 3D guys.

An to get the best quote for the above there is an ugly trick you can pull by simply doing the following:

First ask for a complete quote with a breakdown with costs for Grading, 3D, Compositing.

Since normally the 3D is rather cheap compared to the Grading and they (I say they, I should be saying we or us post people) overcharge for the grading. So when you have all the numbers you can just let them know that you want to do the grading yourself. If they ask why, you can just ask if they got the rocket, if the answer is no...

If you then pour the money saved on the grading that you do yourself onto the 3D department instead then your production will probably shine a lot more...

Now colorists will hate me... So I have to say there are exemptions out there guys that can pull colors like nobody else but if you like your Red Cine X Pro coloring or resolve grading then there is no reason to no do the above.