Why 4K?

[Leaf Baimbridge]

I think shooting in 4K and beyond is really awesome and will definitely be the future of cinema. But, that being said, regardless of the resolution, it will be a VERY limited amount of projects shot on the RED cameras that will ever see a release into theaters, (thus negating the need for such resolutions for the average person). Very few movies shot on film or digitally very seldom go beyond the video store (or netflix) shelf (if they even make it that far). Within the next few years we will see the demise of the DVD(and Blu Ray) and the video store and everything will be streamed to the TV, and it wont be 4K, it will be 1080 or lower. It's likely that 90% of movies shot in 4K will never be viewed above 1080P(which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I'm sure one day the technology will exist that allows 4K delivery into a 4K TV into you living room, but it wont be any time soon. And even when it does come out it will be another 10 years before it is affordable to the average person. It's still cool though.

 

[Jannard]

I think shooting in 4K and beyond is really awesome and will definitely be the future of cinema. But, that being said, regardless of the resolution, it will be a VERY limited amount of projects shot on the RED cameras that will ever see a release into theaters, (thus negating the need for such resolutions for the average person). Very few movies shot on film or digitally very seldom go beyond the video store (or netflix) shelf (if they even make it that far). Within the next few years we will see the demise of the DVD(and Blu Ray) and the video store and everything will be streamed to the TV, and it wont be 4K, it will be 1080 or lower. It's likely that 90% of movies shot in 4K will never be viewed above 1080P(which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I'm sure one day the technology will exist that allows 4K delivery into a 4K TV into you living room, but it wont be any time soon. And even when it does come out it will be another 10 years before it is affordable to the average person. It's still cool though.

The only thing I disagree with is your timeframe...

Jim

 

[Luke Goddard]

It is amazing to me that people are choosing to shoot feature films on 1080P cameras... I know, I know. Just sayin'...

Not so subtle reminder... 4K is 4.3 times the resolution of 1080P.

If you know you're going to be transforming, compositing and encoding footage it's always better to shoot on a higher res format so the effects of generation loss is kept as minimal as possible, similar to how in the pre-digital visual effects world to get the best quality composite for a 35mm film you would shoot the elements at 65mm (when the budget allowed, of course!)

Having to deliver 1080p is NOT an excuse for shooting 1080p... in fact, it should be an excuse to shoot on GREATER than 1080p!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

So is there going to be a RED RAY coming out soon for consumers? I'd love to see a bare bones version that could just play 4K (and downscale to HD until we have affordable 4K panels) from DVD and USB drive, as well as perhaps wireless N and an internal hard drive for downloading content from the internet. A device like that would be incredible if it could be priced at the $300 - $600 range.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Too bad resolution isn't everything. Functionality, ease of use, capabilities, noise, compression, and sooo many more aspects contribute to the final image, which IS the most important aspect of a camera system.

Resolution alone does not determine a camera systems worth. Stop saying it does. There are cameras that exist that have more photosites, which is how you determine the resolution on Red's cameras.

Jim has never said that resolution alone is the reason to shoot Red. Anyone paying attention to the developments at Red has seen the camera produce amazing images- by your own metric of the final image being the most important aspect, I think they're doing quite well.

 

[Dominic Cochran]

Very few movies shot on film or digitally very seldom go beyond the video store (or netflix) shelf (if they even make it that far). Within the next few years we will see the demise of the DVD(and Blu Ray) and the video store and everything will be streamed to the TV, and it wont be 4K, it will be 1080 or lower. It's likely that 90% of movies shot in 4K will never be viewed above 1080P(which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

By that rationale everything made for TV until a few years ago may as well have been shot on VHS home video cameras since everyone was watching no more than 480 lines of vertical resolution. This doesn't make sense, do you see why?

 

[Stephen Williams]

It is amazing to me that people are choosing to shoot feature films on 1080P cameras... I know, I know. Just sayin'...

Not so subtle reminder... 4K is 4.3 times the resolution of 1080P.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I remember a famous director saying the original F900 was as good as film, some people believed him!

Stephen

 

[Jeremy Naus]

I got an XHA1 when it came out. It was my first camera that has made me some money.
At that time I got it because (a) it was within my budget, (b) it has great image for it's price and good low light possibility and (c) it offers 1080p (at a time when HD was just starting to go into households).
=> this makes my XHA1 still good for the next couple of years.

My next camera will be the Scarlet Fixed. Reasons are (a) it's in my budget and (b) it has GREAT picture quality (from what we have already seen) and (c) it will be 3K.

So yeah, 4K is the way to go now, but budgets are also what is important. At this moment Scarlet Fixed will give me the most bang for it's buck.
And HD is now just really taking off here. The LCD/LED screens that are 1080p are finally having reasonable prices. So if I buy Scarlet Fixed when it comes out, I'll be certain that I'll be offering close to bleeding edge resolution to my future customers (aka small firms, small bands and the man down the street).

But if I'd shoot a feature film 4K will indeed be the minimum requirement.

My main question will always be: if I buy this camera, will it still be delivering main-street quality in the next 4-5 years. With my XHA1 I still have to say "yes". But that's because my customers have no means to see my work in anything higher than 1080p. So I have today no need for anything higher than 1080p. But for the coming years I'm sure that a Scarlet Fixed will be a great choice.

 

[christopher witzke]

There's a point where people stop talking about resolution because it's reached a point where it's hit the mark... For instance, in stills photography, the Holy Grail was always 11"X17" @ 300dpi. ( double truck )... and in the late 90's the only setup that would do that was the betterlight scan back. It was slow and could only shoot static sets... I just hated using it. But the clients loved the immediacy and resolving power. Then came the H20 for medium format... it did 16"X16" at 300... almost there and to many we had finally arrived! But once the digital back got to the 22MP mark it was really there... and most have been pretty happy with that amount of resolution. When Canon hit the 22MP mark ( and 14 bit ) many still shooters dumped their medium format gear and jumped ship to FF35 22mp and the clients never really noticed. In fact, I can't remember the last time an creative director asked me about what I shoot with, they just expect it to be good enough and to them it is. Personally, I've never felt the need for 30-65MP... would be fun and amazing, but just not required for what I do.

To me there seems to be a parallel trend between still and motion.... born out of the same science. The RED One is like the phaseone H20... paving the way for many to get into 4k capture. Scarlet will be like canon when it released it's 1st 22mp camera.... and many more will have access to 4k capture and we will see a massive shift in traditional film shooters and current 1080 shooters moving up and over. As well as a flood of still shooters like me with a want/need for motion. I watched the film "Cinematographer Style" the other night, and it's amazing how many of the cinematographers started out as still shooters... also how they all acknowledged how technology is a key factor in the evolution of story telling. http://www.cinematographerstyle.com/about_the_movie/

 

[Roger Crouse]

Time to franchise "Red Theaters". Then the question wouldn't be "Did you see it in iMax?" Instead people would be asking "Did you see it in Red Cinema?" Jim, maybe you should start it with a fleet of mobile units? Post web links of where the mobile theaters will be parked relative to theatrical releases and let the masses experience the 4k as it was meant to be viewed...for a fee of course. And I wouldn't mind those Scarlet ads on the back of my tickets. Can the 3D glasses be similar to the ones you're sporting in your picture?

 

[András Puiz]

It's great to be that future-proof... But I'll be curious to see how the time line pans out. Marketers have a hard time selling Bluray, people are happy to upscale DVDs to 1080p. And it should be a while before people start tossing their HDTVs and buy something even bigger in resolution (with no TV programs supporting it).

Not to be flagging a dead horse, but I'd say RED could make a mint selling low-end 1080p cameras for many years to come...

 

[Tomasz Gwincinski]

1.4k is not the future. Future is 108k.
2.Buying, buying, buying.
3.Ideas has no k.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

1.4k is not the future. Future is 108k.
2.Buying, buying, buying.
3.Ideas has no k.

that ideos has no k is no secret, but ideas covered in 4k is more sexy, think about that.

about your buying statement, do you know the price of a 1080p Sony F23?
you can buy a lot of red colored stuff for this amount

 

[Michael Hastings]

I'm sure one day the technology will exist that allows 4K delivery into a 4K TV into you living room, but it wont be any time soon. And even when it does come out it will be another 10 years before it is affordable to the average person. It's still cool though.

I don't see 4K in the home as very difficult or very expensive even in the very near future given how we are just now getting into the power curve for manufacturing LCD panels.

Consider this:

a 50" 1080P samsung is $1159 at Best Buy
a 21" dell with 1920 x 1080 pixels is $199

4 of those 21" LCDs fit in the same area as the 50" which is approx 4K so obviously it isn't difficult to manufacture the pixels in that form factor. A bit faster electronics and I can easily see a 4K 50" for less than $3000 in a year or two and there are plenty of people that can afford that (and it will be half that in another year or two).

And even if there aren't 4K movies some people will see it as useful just for the truly photorealistic picture wall effect with still photos. (even 4K on a 50" is only 100dpi) And pixellust isn't only for camera geeks - when the profits go out of regular LCDs the manufacturers know that there are plenty of technogeeks and affluent people that want the latest greatest.

And of course REDRAY will be out soon, but it doesn't matter that much initially. My WDTV 1080P media player (uses USB memory sticks or harddrive) can be had for $69, so even if 4K REDRAY optical media isn't ready I'm sure a 4K USB media player wouldn't be very expensive. It may even be built right into the TV, as usb picture players are now. For all we know (instead of working on his own 4K displays) Jim/RED may be approaching LCD manufacturers with a low cost REDCODE player chipset - maybe an all in one chip with REDCODE/REDRAY, H.264, jpeg, mpeg, etc. decoding.

Fun days ahead.

 

[Daniel Valle]

I think shooting in 4K and beyond is really awesome and will definitely be the future of cinema. But, that being said, regardless of the resolution, it will be a VERY limited amount of projects shot on the RED cameras that will ever see a release into theaters, (thus negating the need for such resolutions for the average person). Very few movies shot on film or digitally very seldom go beyond the video store (or netflix) shelf (if they even make it that far). Within the next few years we will see the demise of the DVD(and Blu Ray) and the video store and everything will be streamed to the TV, and it wont be 4K, it will be 1080 or lower. It's likely that 90% of movies shot in 4K will never be viewed above 1080P(which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I'm sure one day the technology will exist that allows 4K delivery into a 4K TV into you living room, but it wont be any time soon. And even when it does come out it will be another 10 years before it is affordable to the average person. It's still cool though.

Part of me stills hopes for a theatrical renaissance (not that it's dead though) with 4K and digital distribution.

I'm specially intrigued on how this will improve the distribution of art, foreign, indie and old films.

Because if doesn't, the only use of digital distribution (in my eyes) will be making the distribution of Harry Potter and Spider-Man less costly for the studios.

What interests me is being able to put up a Howard Hawks retrospective in your theater by simply going online and making a playlist of his films and pressing "play". Of course there would have to be a great system of making sure it's financially rewarding for all involved.

Watching Seven Samurai or Sergio Leone scanned at 4K in a movie theater should be pretty kick ass.

I don't see this happening in real life though, only in my cinematic wet dreams. :coolgleamA:

To be honest, I think piracy is one of the biggest challenges filmmakers will face in the coming years (perhaps even a bigger challenge than what TV was in the 50's and 60's). Hopefully digital distribution will play a part in putting a halt to that, at least partially.

But yeah, sorry to derail the thread. =p

 

[Humberto Rivera]

ROGER, Roger Crouse: "All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time" - Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

From an old Marine, "Chesty" Puller always had a knack for saying the right thing, then they fought their way back to the beach, never leaving anyone behind: Dead, Wounded, of Alive! That’s the Marine Corps way! The best Defense is a good Offence! The Red Team reminds me of the Marine Corps.

It was the Fifth Marine Corps Regiment, remember at the beginning they were only two regiments in the Marine Cops the 5 Th, and the 6 Th. FYI I was in the First Platoon, of Alpha Company, First Battalion, Fifth Marine Regiment, the same one that has fought its way through the history of the Marine Corps and the United States.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

4 of those 21" LCDs fit in the same area as the 50" which is approx 4K so obviously it isn't difficult to manufacture the pixels in that form factor. A bit faster electronics and I can easily see a 4K 50" for less than $3000 in a year or two and there are plenty of people that can afford that (and it will be half that in another year or two).

Exactly. And this is why 4xHD and 4K displays are being shown at CES. This is why HDMI 1.4 supports 1600p, 4xHD and 4K 2:1. A couple manufacturers are claiming they will ship their first 4xHD consumer panels by the end of this year.

I see a lot of naysayers when it comes to 4K displays. And most, if not all, the arguments against them were the same exact arguments being made against 1080p only a few years ago.

 

[Andrew Thomas]

I don't really get your POV Jim. You ask why somebody would shoot a 5D right now, with its far less than 4k finishing resolution, when you're right around the corner from selling a camera that is seemingly designed for 2k finish.

How does you question about shooting on <really any 1080p cam> not equally apply with a product you yourself are about to release?

Or are you suggesting that the 3k resolution scarlet is not fit for feature work either?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I don't really get your POV Jim. You ask why somebody would shoot a 5D right now, with its far less than 4k finishing resolution, when you're right around the corner from selling a camera that is seemingly designed for 2k finish.

How does you question about shooting on <really any 1080p cam> not equally apply with a product you yourself are about to release?

Or are you suggesting that the 3k resolution scarlet is not fit for feature work either?

ehm, there will be a 5k scarlet S35...this will be the main scarlet unit used on feature and commercial work.

Beside that, red is offering a 3k version including a lens (fixed) for everybody who cant buy the 5k version because they dont have the money!
That is really generous, think about the R&D costs, nad think about all the people who cant afford a 5k scarlet and a 6k usd lens which will shoot really bad ass stuff with the fixed lens scarlet.

guess around 5000 people would start to cry immediatly when red would cancel the fixed scarlet program. what then? canon-fucking h264 youtube d5?

 

[Andrew Thomas]

None of what you said is an actual response to my question. Jim quite explicitly said that its a bad idea to shoot a feature on a camera that doesn't give you a proper 4k finish, yet he is planning to sell a camera that is pretty much designed for 2k finish.

So the question is, does he not see the 3k resolution Scarlets as viable options for feature work.