Why 4K?

[Stuart English]

4K delivery

4K delivery

We are just NOW in these past few years, as consumers able to see 1/3rd the quality FILM is capable of at home. and film has been around over a 100 years... it will come in due time.

But this time around "in due time" is likely to be soon, very soon.

 

[Aulani Freitas]

4K is the way to go! I work with 4 SD cameras in my department 2 Sony DSR-570wl and the 2 Panasonic AJSDX900 that WERE great for it's time. However in less than 4 years those 4 cameras are obsolete and because they are SD even more of a reason to throw them out the window. The Panasonic cameras make for great pictures, but the Red One stands alone in every way.

It is heart breaking looking back and spending the money on what could've been two Red Camera's, and nice accessories. However that is the painful reality that the Red Camera is worth every penny and won't go away because it's ahead of the game of technology not behind it. The Red Camera is a return on an investment and won't shy away from that. HD can't touch 4K in any way shape or form. People think they are watching a great picture on HD but 4K... geez it's in a league of it's own.

We had a shoot yesterday where we hired a still photographer for two commercial spots. I thought to myself "we don't need the still photographer anymore we just need to role and pic out raw stills from the camera." How amazing is that!

Altogether Red One or higher and even lower is hands down the way to go. I'm a firm believer of being ahead of the game and this camera from a TV background is hands down where everyone needs to be.

I hope in the near future I can get my hands on the Epic camera. Having 4K and 5K is no longer a dream it's a reality and RED made it a reality.

Mahalo Nui Loa!

Aulani Freitas

 

[Stuart English]

x264 is a stellar codec, and under Placebo settings, high quality 1080p is about 2.5 MB/s (i.e. about 20 Mbps).

So, the RED codec doing four times the resolution at the same bitrate is a big step forward.

Agreed, H.264 / X.264 is an excellent codec for HD videos, and much more efficient than MPEG-2. You can understand why many people have chosen it to deliver 720p or 1080p video streams.

Regarding the 4K RED RAY codec, in addition to delivering more than 4 times the resolution of 1080p - at 20% lower average bit rate - the absence of any blocking or banding artifacts all too commonly seen with other codecs is also a big advantage.

 

[David Battistella]

I wish M-PEG 2 was never invented. It's the worst codec I can imagine. The idea of I and P frames representing what was actually captured goes against all motion imaging aesthetics I have come to know.

When I first saw this codec (at the 1996 Atlanta Games) I never thought it would get out of the gate. SONY has a way of pushing forward their ideas though.

David

 

[Tom.Wong]

Blu Ray disc is increasing in capacity over the next few years, up to a terabyte. Combination of new input standard away from hdmi, the fact that you can firmware upgrade ps3's and bd players, and a revamped codec for bd could offer 4k delivery just like that. Red Ray looks and sounds amazing but doubtful you'll see it at a local best buy (maybe) but the technology exists already, it just needs some final pushes, and cost effectiveness comes next.

 

[Peter Moretti]

I really think that 4K is going to get a boost from full frame sensor size b/c the extra resolution will make the shallow DoF's fall-off more gentle. JMHO.

 

[Palmer Woodrow]

Blu Ray disc is increasing in capacity over the next few years, up to a terabyte. Combination of new input standard away from hdmi, the fact that you can firmware upgrade ps3's and bd players, and a revamped codec for bd could offer 4k delivery just like that.

Nope. First, the laser assemblies in current players are not capable of reading the higher-capacity discs. Another failure to provide for the future, in a long list of such failures in the optical disc's history.

Second, extra capacity doesn't mean better quality unless you increase the bitrate. Blu-Ray's initial bitrate limit was somewhere between 36 & 50 mbps, but this source says the standard can be scaled up: http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_speed

And finally, not all players (perhaps not even most) can utilize a whole new codec. They most likely rely on hardware decoding chips.

At any rate, the current players aren't doing to cut it (despite this mega-layered design being talked about before they were released).

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, the finalized quad-layer Blu-Ray specification was just approved. However, it's questionable if it will actually come to the home entertainment market and seems more likely destined for data products. However, the quad-layer discs still only hold 100GB (about 96.5GB actual) and with current media costs and lackluster durability, 100GB discs just don't make that much sense for archival. IMO, FLASH products are poised to completely steal this future market from optical media within the next year or so. Especially the write-once FLASH options we keep hearing about.

Specifications for quad-layer compliant players are still up in the air somewhat. None of the players currently on the market can be upgraded to read quad-layer discs. It will require more hardware to align and focus the laser diodes onto the data layers, many players would need more powerful lasers too. There is most definitely room to scale-up the bit rate. Spinning the discs faster is not really an option, the plastic media can only be spun so fast before vibration gets out of control. But the use of multiple lasers and/or laser pickups is definitely an option, just as hard drives can us multiple read/write heads. Most of the proposed designs for quad-layer BD players make use of dual laser diodes and could theoretically double bandwidth over current players with this alone.

I guess we'll see what happens, but I don't see Blu-Ray hanging around for that long. There are too many better technologies that are almost here and we're seeing an ever-increasing trend toward online delivery for media. And not just streaming, but downloads as well, which will open up media options to consumers and allow them to store data on the medium they choose and not be locked into one particular optical disc format.

 

[Tom.Wong]

and all that just makes me sigh when i look at how much of my original dvd collection i've replaced with BD. the way the cookie crumbles i suppose.

 

[Mark Andersen]

It is amazing to me that people are choosing to shoot feature films on 1080P cameras... I know, I know. Just sayin'...

Not so subtle reminder... 4K is 4.3 times the resolution of 1080P.

Jim

Amount other projects I shoot a lot of stock footage. I want my stock to last as long as possible and be able to have the widest range of uses. That's why I shoot 4K. I know lots of folks who shoot stock on DSLRs. I just don't get it, they are severly limited their potential customer base.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I doubt anyone at Red for a moment believes that ARRI will never offer an "Alexa 2" that *will* shoot 4K. I have to think ARRI will offer such an option/camera that'll deliver the arri brand response (all the usual jazz) plus 4K resolution. Right now, you can't blame them for selling what they have and playing up their strengths.

 

[Alex Mack]

That is quite sexy with the youtube upgrade... though what they really, really need is just to get their* 1080p feeds right before they move on to 4k and above..

I do feel that higher-than-2k raw solution is a must for any digital cinema camera, though I'm not against a proper 2k delivery downscaled from that. Its that downscale that really matters and will deliver the perceptible resolution difference.

 

[Stuart English]

4K deivery

4K deivery

Blu Ray disc is increasing in capacity over the next few years, up to a terabyte. Combination of new input standard away from hdmi, the fact that you can firmware upgrade ps3's and bd players, and a revamped codec for bd could offer 4k delivery just like that. Red Ray looks and sounds amazing but doubtful you'll see it at a local best buy (maybe) but the technology exists already, it just needs some final pushes, and cost effectiveness comes next.

That is an interesting road map, but I think that optical drives may have missed their market opportunity.

RED RAY already demonstrates playback of 4K at about half the data rate typically used by Blue Ray, so there seems little need for more capacity.

And I can buy a 2TB USB-2 hard disk drive (about $100 retail) to provide an instant access, 150+ movie capacity, 4K resolution RED RAY archive.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Blu Ray disc is increasing in capacity over the next few years, up to a terabyte.

this was really funny.come on guys this is reduser.net and you r all tech pros.. Bluray is 25GB or 50GB (single &double layer) this is it.Over! no more size for bluray in the future..Next media will be HDV or 5D DVD who knows..

 

[Leo Sardello]

I’m not a fan of Blu-ray (personally I thought it was antiquated when it came out because it is an optical media) but I hope a couple of links can clear the debate up a little…

For the super multi-layer disks that are backwards compatible and are expected to reach 1TB:

http://digitimes.com/news/a20081201PD212.html

Since the specifications of Blu-ray have long been finalized I think it is fair to assume that super multi-layer disks will be called something else, despite backward compatibility. However, Sony and Panasonic have announced an increase in BD capacity to 33.4GB that seems likely to be sold under the Blu-ray banner.

Evidenced here:

http://www.hd-report.com/2010/01/06/sony-expands-blu-ray-storage-capacity/

Please note both of the above technologies are separate from the quad layer 128GB BDXL format that is not backwards compatible.

Personally I think streaming media will kill physical media for home delivery before too long, so I wouldn’t put stock in this stuff for creative content delivery, but that’s just another opinion.

Cheers

 

[Duncan Thompson]

My question is. If you current end product is 1080, will the picture quality be better if filmed at 4k and output to 1080, of is it better to film as close to the output resolution?

http://reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/beer.gif
Simple answer -- what would you rather watch a DV image shown on an old CRT TV or a movie image (35mm) shown on an old CRT TV?

Baraka (65mm) looks better on Youtube than LonelyGirl15 (web cam). http://reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

Sorry, this sounds patronizing, but when you think about it this way -- well it's just an easy conceptual "mnemonic"

http://reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/emote_couch.gif

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

this was really funny.come on guys this is reduser.net and you r all tech pros.. Bluray is 25GB or 50GB (single &double layer) this is it.Over! no more size for bluray in the future..Next media will be HDV or 5D DVD who knows..

its HVD not HDV.. Halographic Versatile Disc
HVD have become a standard that all companies agteed on..
but no body plans on releasing any.. as of the cost.. and also not throwing current disk technologies.. its aimed to around 2020 or something like that..

well, in reality.. you need around 20GB to hold one RED Ray movie.. so, Blu ray is enough as a medium.. Flash also isn't a bad option.. as its prices will get lower and lower over time..

 

[Joe Carney]

For those of us who actually purchase BD titles, I don't think they are going away. We will always need something better than a HD for long term storage. Maybe someday some company will release media storage systems with affordable LTO tape drives for consumers, until then my Discs are the ultimate backup.

 

[Curran Giddens]

well, in reality.. you need around 20GB to hold one RED Ray movie.. so, Blu ray is enough as a medium..

20GB? At one point it was supposed to support standard single-layer DVD media for Red Ray content. I know the optical drive is no longer supported, but it should still support a full movie at less than 4.4GB.

 

[David Rasberry]

well, in reality.. you need around 20GB to hold one RED Ray movie.. so, Blu ray is enough as a medium.. Flash also isn't a bad option.. as its prices will get lower and lower over time..

From the announced bit rates, a full 4k resolution feature would fit on a standard DVD with no problem. Truly high quality visually loss less compression is Red's most significant and valuable development at both ends of the scale at this point, Redcode for acquisition and Redray for release.