Why 4K?

[Stuart English]

RED RAY and media

RED RAY and media

A short movie or other programming could certainly go onto a standard DVD.

At 2 MB/sec, a 4.7GB DVD ~ 39 minutes and a 9.4GB DVD ~ 78 minutes.

With the smaller capacity 25 GB Blue-Ray ~ 213 minutes.


Ideal capacity seems to be 16GB ~ 133 minutes, which is a good match to (re-usable) solid state media.

For an on-line library, a 2TB USB-2 hard drive would support more than 120 movies at that 16GB file size.

 

[H. Farberg]

A short movie or other programming could certainly go onto a standard DVD.

At 2 MB/sec, a 4.7GB DVD ~ 39 minutes and a 9.4GB DVD ~ 78 minutes.

With the smaller capacity 25 GB Blue-Ray ~ 213 minutes.


Ideal capacity seems to be 16GB ~ 133 minutes, which is a good match to (re-usable) solid state media.

For an on-line library, a 2TB USB-2 hard drive would support more than 120 movies at that 16GB file size.

What about other resolutions? What's the bitrate for the same artifact-free quality at 2K? 0.5 MB/s?

 

[Curran Giddens]

Thanks Stewart. Certainly cleared up any confusion that I had.

 

[Nathan Ryan]

For those of us who actually purchase BD titles, I don't think they are going away. We will always need something better than a HD for long term storage. Maybe someday some company will release media storage systems with affordable LTO tape drives for consumers, until then my Discs are the ultimate backup.

I've heard about people like you. I always thought it was urban myth. :laugh:

Are you using BD for archiving data? I'm not sure I could trust 'em, given the failure rate of burned DVD media. I'll stick with spinning disk RAID 5 w/ hot swap and live off site mirror. But then, I don't have more than a dozen or so terabytes of media I need to save, just yet.

 

[Stuart English]

RED RAY at 2K?

RED RAY at 2K?

What about other resolutions? What's the bitrate for the same artifact-free quality at 2K? 0.5 MB/s?

We'd prefer to embrace 4K resolution at 2MB/s and downscale to 1080p at the RED RAY player if needed by the display.

 

[Christian Berg]

Stuart, how is the RedRay platform coming along? Will there be a software for playback on computer or how will the workflow go? Are you pushing the RedRay codec into other markets than pro cinema? Will it become an open standard of som sort like h264?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

For those of us who actually purchase BD titles, I don't think they are going away. We will always need something better than a HD for long term storage. Maybe someday some company will release media storage systems with affordable LTO tape drives for consumers, until then my Discs are the ultimate backup.

Serious question here... How can you really justify this as being cost-effective over HDD or tape backups? With the best prices on Blu-Ray media factored in, I still can't get the numbers to work in favor of Blu-Ray. The cheapest I can find BD media comes out to a almost $0.09 per GB. I buy LTO-4 tapes all the time for $20/each in bulk and one LTO-4 tape stores the same amount of data as 32 (yes, count them. THIRTY-TWO) BD25 discs. BD media is nearly 4X the price per GB.

20TB of backups on LTO-4, starting from nothing, would cost about $540 for the media plus about $2750 for a good LTO-4 drive with software and controller. If we extend that to 40TB, that would be 54 LTO-4 tapes and a media cost of about $1080. Add that drive kit in and we're at a total of $3830 for 40TB of LTO-4 archives, starting from nil.

20TB of backups onto Blu-Ray would require 910 discs!!!! Or about $2275 for the media and about $150 for a good writer, just using standard data format outputs via OSX or Windows to the discs. 40TB of BD archives becomes 1820 discs at a cost of over $4500.

So, for Blu-Ray to make sense, you can't be archiving very much at all. I'm a small operation here -- two people really, running a RED One camera and assorted DSLRs for stills and time-lapse. I created and shelved over 60TB worth of archives in the last year. Granted, one person's work may require a lot more archival storage than others. Anyone shooting stock, or creating images that are intended to be marketable for indeterminate amounts of time, will need a lot more archival space than someone shooting short-lived corporate or TV spots. It took 7 LTO-4 tapes to make a full back up of my primary Mac workstation and attached RAID storage this weekend -- a bit over 5TB total, and the thing is only about half-full at the moment. I've made backups of this system that have spanned 11 tapes. That would be about 330 Blu-Ray discs. That's insanity. Especially because I have a second Mac tower that's just about as big as this one. Not to mention the PCs I run too...

 

[Peter Majtan]

We'd prefer to embrace 4K resolution at 2MB/s and downscale to 1080p at the RED RAY player if needed by the display.

Stuart - but what about Scarlet 2/3"? The actual acquisition is 3K, mostly destined to be finished for 2K-DCI master...

Peter

 

[M Most]

Stuart - but what about Scarlet 2/3"? The actual acquisition is 3K, mostly destined to be finished for 2K-DCI master...

Peter

I would think that the majority, if not the vast majority, of Scarlet material would be destined for HD video, not theatrical release. At least if we're looking at reality here...

 

[David Rasberry]

I would think that the majority, if not the vast majority, of Scarlet material would be destined for HD video, not theatrical release. At least if we're looking at reality here...

Perhaps, but 2k DCI is 1080p resolution and Scarlet will shoot 3k at native 1.85:1 2k cinema format without vertical cropping, unlike any HD camera. There certainly is nothing to limit its use to HD video compared to the numerous features being shot in 2/3" format these days on other cameras.

 

[Peter Majtan]

I would think that the majority, if not the vast majority, of Scarlet material would be destined for HD video, not theatrical release. At least if we're looking at reality here...

You might be in for a rude awaking. I am sure lot of HDTV productions or projects will choose the Scarlet, but don't underestimate how many features are going to be shot on it too... Just look at how many current digital-based cine productions are using at the very best 2/3" HD resolution. Scarlet with 2/3" 3K RAW format and the ability to shoot high-speed at full 3K res is going to be very very very (pardon the emphasis) interesting to many of these (put aside those with budgets for RED ONE / EPIC). I can foresee a flood of indy features and documentaries (which are now exceedingly targeted for cine distribution as well) being shot on the 2/3" Scarlet models...

Mark my words...

Peter

 

[Alex Mack]

Or Avatar (most non-indie feature ever haha) - plenty of keystone and cropping work of 2/3s 1080p to get stereoscopic!

2/3 Scarlet is a breath of fresh air!

 

[Joe Carney]

Serious question here... How can you really justify this as being cost-effective over HDD or tape backups? With the best prices on Blu-Ray media factored in, I still can't get the numbers to work in favor of Blu-Ray. The cheapest I can find BD media comes out to a almost $0.09 per GB. I buy LTO-4 tapes all the time for $20/each in bulk and one LTO-4 tape stores the same amount of data as 32 (yes, count them. THIRTY-TWO) BD25 discs. BD media is nearly 4X the price per GB.

20TB of backups on LTO-4, starting from nothing, would cost about $540 for the media plus about $2750 for a good LTO-4 drive with software and controller. If we extend that to 40TB, that would be 54 LTO-4 tapes and a media cost of about $1080. Add that drive kit in and we're at a total of $3830 for 40TB of LTO-4 archives, starting from nil.

20TB of backups onto Blu-Ray would require 910 discs!!!! Or about $2275 for the media and about $150 for a good writer, just using standard data format outputs via OSX or Windows to the discs. 40TB of BD archives becomes 1820 discs at a cost of over $4500.

So, for Blu-Ray to make sense, you can't be archiving very much at all. I'm a small operation here -- two people really, running a RED One camera and assorted DSLRs for stills and time-lapse. I created and shelved over 60TB worth of archives in the last year. Granted, one person's work may require a lot more archival storage than others. Anyone shooting stock, or creating images that are intended to be marketable for indeterminate amounts of time, will need a lot more archival space than someone shooting short-lived corporate or TV spots. It took 7 LTO-4 tapes to make a full back up of my primary Mac workstation and attached RAID storage this weekend -- a bit over 5TB total, and the thing is only about half-full at the moment. I've made backups of this system that have spanned 11 tapes. That would be about 330 Blu-Ray discs. That's insanity. Especially because I have a second Mac tower that's just about as big as this one. Not to mention the PCs I run too...

Geeez folks. I'm talking about purchasing the movie on BD, not backing up my data. I know how to make a copy to a Hard Drive. You have me feeling like a caveman.
I have over 300 "Original" DVDs and Blu-Ray movies. Thanks to Netflix, I only purchase ones I really really like now. Mainly Animated features from around the world.
May come as a surprise to many of you, but some of us think making pirated copies is immoral.
That's also why I subscribe to Zune, access to millions of songs for 15 USD per month, legally.
I would love to purchase electronically directly to my own media server with something like LTO 5 tape backup.
I do stream Hulu and NetFlix, but rent BD titles when I want the full effect of well made HiDef movies. I have a modest, but nice, home theater system.:emote_rainshower:

 

[Justin Coleman]

We'd prefer to embrace 4K resolution at 2MB/s and downscale to 1080p at the RED RAY player if needed by the display.

Stuart, are RED working with distributors or cinemas over committing to 4k. Im in the UK and it seems that 98 percent of all digital cinemas, including the multiplexes showing blockbusters, are using 2k and while thats great from an indie filmmaker pov, I'd love to see RED helping to set a standard of digital distribution.

Thanks

 

[Hank Devos]

It is amazing to me that people are choosing to shoot feature films on 1080P cameras... I know, I know. Just sayin'...

Not so subtle reminder... 4K is 4.3 times the resolution of 1080P.

Jim

If you'd like to donate a RED One to my film I could alleviate the dreaded thought of maybe having to shoot on a 1080p camera.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Stuart English]

4K or 2K

4K or 2K

Stuart, are RED working with distributors or cinemas over committing to 4k. Im in the UK and it seems that 98 percent of all digital cinemas, including the multiplexes showing blockbusters, are using 2k and while thats great from an indie filmmaker pov, I'd love to see RED helping to set a standard of digital distribution.

Can't comment on that specific question; but I can say that as we support real time 4K -> 2K downscale in the RED RAY players, our 4K content is compatible with existing 2K DLP projection systems.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Stuart, that is great and we know this info. But what about the 3K Scarlet? What kind of support will there be for 3K-RAW and 2K finished media?

(Sorry for posting this twice, just making sure You did not miss this on the previous page)

Any info in this regards would be greatly appreciated...

Cheers

Peter

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Stuart, how is the RedRay platform coming along? Will there be a software for playback on computer or how will the workflow go? Are you pushing the RedRay codec into other markets than pro cinema? Will it become an open standard of som sort like h264?

I'm wondering about the same thing,, the RED RAY codec can be a standard for 4K delivery on any kind of medium,, Optical Disks, Internet, Computer Playback, over network,, etc..
Also at higher bitrates available in the Codec it can be the format that all 4K productions are finished in.. I mean all the exports for distribution and archival will be in the RED RAY codec.. that would be a great thing and a great solution for delivery..
and this brings a question how are we going to encode for RED RAY? Redcine X?

Stuart, that is great and we know this info. But what about the 3K Scarlet? What kind of support will there be for 3K-RAW and 2K finished media?

(Sorry for posting this twice, just making sure You did not miss this on the previous page)

Any info in this regards would be greatly appreciated...

Cheers

Peter

Upscale and finish in 4K.. 4K is the new standard..

 

[Michael Brennan]

HDcctv alliance

HDcctv alliance

Formed in mid 2009 the HDcctv alliance is gathering steam.
Formed between CCTV groups and SMPTE to define standards for security applications, they are opting for 720 and 1080p down ethernet without compression, but can also use CCTV industry standard coaxial cable (RG/59, RG/6 and RG/11). It is point to point standard not a network technology.

The system that currently exists for security apps is Megapixel IP. Data is packetized and streamed on a network so motion can be jerky and delayed.
As I noted a few weeks back there exists now a 3.5k IP security camera that streams 8fps. In respect to resolution Megapixel IP is limited only by camera and network congestion and they have not stopped at 1920x1080 res.

HDcctv alliance standards are developing, they are gunning to replace IP networks with their 720p and 1080p HDcctv standard and saying that they will consider a 3k and 4k standard.

At the moment they have created a standard relating to a single cable that includes;
Picture data
Up cable power
Up cable control of pan tilt
Bi directional audio

They say that low cost HD consumer technology is driving HD adoption for cctv, namely;
Develpment of HD sensors with good enough sensitivity for security work
Low cost $15! chips that encode/decode and transmit HD over ethernet.
Low cost HD monitors
Availability of HD lenses due to consumer camcorder demand


I'd say that if the security industry can make it work, 4k has every chance of success in all walks of life.


Mike Brennan

 

[Stuart English]

HD evolution

HD evolution

I'd say that if the security industry can make it work, 4k has every chance of success in all walks of life.

I agree with the sentiment Michael, I'd just tweak that a bit to say -

" if the security industry can make HD work, RED has every chance of success driving 4K into all walks of life " :smile: