Who is the REDUSER?

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Hello there and thank you for tuning in. Well let’s start here, who is a REDUSER? I wanna give the opportunity for the video community to speak out and dial us in as to what you do for a living and how RED helps you accomplish video for your clients.

Since 2008 I’ve wanted a Scarlet, delays…delays…delays…so Feb/09 I made the jump for a Mark II which has severed me well, especially starting off as a freelance video guy and filmmaker. I hate to say it but after burning out 8GB of RAM on my Mac Pro up-converting to 1080p ProRes files I began to wonder how am I going to pull this off with a Scarlet? Do I even really need one? At what point can my clients tell the difference between 720p-1080p-2K-3K-4K-5K-6K (Seriously who requests more than 4K)?

I know that’s alot of questions but USA Today posted an article on DSLR and accessories sales going up in the past few months.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2010-02-10-techvideo10_ST_N.htm
I’ve held back on camera support for my Mark II cause I’ve been saving up for a Scarlet but the more and more I use my Mark II, I feel better off. I’ve been waiting so long for a Scarlet that I kinda don’t care anymore, everyone is always shocked at the images I produce and at what point am I going to need more?

So I have five questions for you (the 4th is personal). 1) Who do you think is a TRUE REDUSER?!?!?! 2)What kinda of budget do you need to SUCCESSFULLY shoot and edit with a RED. 3)Is RED Pro-summer, should it be, or go all PRO? 4) What do you have to charge to feed yourself and camera/computer while keeping clients happy? 5) Do DSLR sales have the slack that Scarlet wishes to take?

I’m sure Scarlets will fly off the shelves first Q upon release, but I have a feeling the used market is going to be sustainable because the average pro-summer can’t cut the footage or are blessed to upgrade to a 35mm Scarlet/Epic. Also what if the Mark II gets another price drop and firmware update not to mention Mark III in the very near future…2011? Basically what I’m trying to say if you don’t already have a client base or $15,000 , than don’t bother with any RED?!?! DSLR has a workflow that’s steady and easy not to mention cost effective habit to generate higher margins with the same quality if not better.

- $5,245 - Fixed lens Scarlet kit + 16gb CF card

- $5,000 - Mac Pro + Monitor

- $2,200 – MacBook Pro*

- $1,000 – Final Cut Studio

- $2,500 – Tripod + Focus Puller + Support + Bags/Cases
________________________________________________
- $15,945 – Total Minimum Cost


*MacBook Pro - you’ll need a place to dump your one 16GB CF and is money better spent. If not use the $2,200 on more storage options.

I do not hate RED but I’m really concerned for them. I’m not a troll nor do I want trolls to post, please be honest if you do. This is a high priority topic for all of us out there who really do video and love it.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

In my opinion, you could enter any other camera in its class into spot 1 and same scenario. If you are cutting your own stuff, doing fx/graphics, basically a one man shop - you need all of the stuff you listed. Okay, need might be too strong. You'll want all of that stuff listed. Except, you might go PC and perhaps Premiere or Vegas. But still, the point is the same. You need to invest in this stuff if you want to be a one man band. You'll also need hard drives (many of them) and perhaps a tape backup system. File based doesn't always translate to cheap. There's some minimal investment to get into this game.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

We're not REDUsers. We're film makers, commercial production people, corporate production people.

We're people who are paid to do what we do, and we want professional equipment to do it with. So we use REDs

There are many differences between the RED products and those you speak of. It may be easy for YOU to generalize it all, but as someone who cares AS MUCH ABOUT SOUND as I do my picture (As you will find most pros do) then a still camera with a little video in it is not going to cut the mustard.

The differences between Scarlet and Canon are numerous and extreme.. Just look them up.. You don't need me to tell you.

I must also say, that with these differences being SO obvious, and so important, it's hard not to see you as either a troll, or a potential scarlet customer who is pissed off at RED cause you believed them when they said early '09.. Those of us who have been around a while have learned....

This time we want it right out the gate... Not fast. RED can take their time.. We'll be here (Easy for me to say.. I have a RED ONE)

:yesnod:

Jay

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

The typical DSLR users generally don't see the difference between dslr
and a real camera.

They can't see bad focus pulling, dynamics range, and post-production possibilities... They only see resolution and iso, so they can use natural lights only, and have a sharp image.

When they do see that, they use a camera, and a dslr when thay have to.


[edit : a little upset cause I had to fight two days ago with 5d fanboy who hates Red though it never use it (and never used any 35mm camera anyway)]

 

[Martin Weiss]

- $5,245 - Fixed lens Scarlet kit + 16gb CF card

- $5,000 - Mac Pro + Monitor

- $2,200 – MacBook Pro*

- $1,000 – Final Cut Studio

- $2,500 – Tripod + Focus Puller + Support + Bags/Cases
________________________________________________
- $15,945 – Total Minimum Cost

5.245 Fixed lens Scarlet kit + 16gig card
1.199 iMac 21.5"
240 4 used 8gig cards
0 iMovie
0 RED Cine-X
1.000 used tripod/head
-------------------
7.444 Total minimum cost

You can save further by dumping the 16gig card, buying a used iMac (Intel), and getting an even cheaper tripod.

Lets you produce images in beyond 2k. If you work hard, you can build up your client base and build up your equipment.


EDIT: Also keep in mind the resale value/expected life-span. On the DSLR front, there seems to be a new camera out every season, halving about the resale value of the previous season's camera.

 

[Julian Gerretsen]

I agree with Jay (But then I bought and loved his DVD so I am a bit biased).

People with RED's are serious filmmakers who want the quality and resolution of 35mm film but who do not have the 35mm film budget or who prefer not to shoot in a 35mm film workflow. But in every respect they want as good quality as their film brothers are able to obtain (and better). I've seen quite a few movies last year shot on R1's, and they are stunning. Can't quite say the same for any DSLR movies (no offence). OK, true, Scarlet will probably not be in the same category as a R1, but light years ahead of a DSLR.

Comparing a DSLR with video capability to RED is kind of odd. Massively different compression ratios and image quality. I'm looking at this from the point of view of an R1. Scarlet may be lower resolution but will still have file sizes (and hence picture information) that will make any DSLR look stupid. Those RED file sizes are there for a reason. RED is 12 bit (currently): I am not sure, but check out the bit depth of a DSLR video mode, probably not quite the same (in all likelihood 8 bit, maybe 10 if you are lucky, but still on a highly compressed file).

Sound: Jay's covered this, but I'll just say: 4 channel, 24 bit, 48Khz UNCOMPRESSED sampling... all the answer you need there really

Answers to some of your questions:

1: Covered above
2: What is your project, what is your timeframe? e.g If you are happy to render out your R3D's whilst you sleep and not invest in RED Rocket™™, you can get away with that. Are you happy to use your Nikon lenses (I am) instead of RED Prime's, you can get away with that... how long is a piece of string really? Can you make your film in 6 months instead of 6 weeks - So long as your basic imagery is excellent, you can take your time over things if you are in control of the project.
3: Depends on whose hands it's in. I've seen really bad movies (bad as in shoddy lighting, focus etc.) shot on a Panavision 35mm, the pinnacle of film shooting technology. A RED in a Pro's hands can deliver quality imagery like D9, Book of Eli, The Knowing, Manure, etc. or really bad imagery if poorly exposed, lit, etc. All other issues aside, if a tool allows you to compete on a level playing field with the "big boys", then I would say that that is in all likelihood a professional tool.
4: My film is a self financed project, fortunately, no clients to answer to!
5: Completely different market, I believe.

I wouldn't worry too much about RED. The target market is prepared to wait (and wait, and wait) for the right tools for their particular jobs.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

I agree with Steve and Martin.

Whatever camera you use (I'm happy that you bought a camera for yourself and aren't sitting on your thumbs using the wait for one as an excuse not to do anything), the more involved you get, the more you will realize the expense involved. But, like Martin suggested, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. You have a camera now... start getting some support equipment. Buy Scarlet when it comes if you want. Rent equipment when you need it for a job. Buy stuff you can afford, or are using regularly on paying work, etc, etc.

later,
Jason

 

[Tim Hole]

After all the lengthy talk of VDSLR's, all over the web, I am yet to see anything projected on the big screen. It just occured to me as reading the post. A lot of things look shit hot on the web and even on a TV, but projected on a 40' screen would be interesting.

i guess it depends on the quality of the projector more than anything though.

 

[mjeppsen]

After all the lengthy talk of VDSLR's, all over the web, I am yet to see anything projected on the big screen. It just occured to me as reading the post. A lot of things look shit hot on the web and even on a TV, but projected on a 40' screen would be interesting.

i guess it depends on the quality of the projector more than anything though.

I've seen my 5DMKII footage projected on a massive screen from a 2K Christie projector, and it looked simply brilliant.

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

5.245 Fixed lens Scarlet kit + 16gig card
1.199 iMac 21.5"
240 4 used 8gig cards
0 iMovie
0 RED Cine-X
1.000 used tripod/head
-------------------
7.444 Total minimum cost

You can save further by dumping the 16gig card, buying a used iMac (Intel), and getting an even cheaper tripod.

Lets you produce images in beyond 2k. If you work hard, you can build up your client base and build up your equipment.


EDIT: Also keep in mind the resale value/expected life-span. On the DSLR front, there seems to be a new camera out every season, halving about the resale value of the previous season's camera.

:nono:

well
i wouldn't use a imac for R3D processing
i wouldn't use i movie for making great RED-appropriate-movies
i wouldn't use a chear tripod for RED-appropriate shooting
... if you have this kind of hardware in mind better us a small panny or sony cam ... maybe a Canon XH-A1 around $3k

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

ANOTHER OPTION:

ANOTHER OPTION:

- $5,245 - Fixed lens Scarlet kit + 16gb CF card

- $5,000 - Mac Pro + Monitor

- $2,200 – MacBook Pro*

- $1,000 – Final Cut Studio

- $2,500 – Tripod + Focus Puller + Support + Bags/Cases
________________________________________________
- $15,945 – Total Minimum Cost

OK THAT's ANOTHER OPTION:


- $6,299 - Sony PMW-EX1R XDCAM EX Full HD Camcorder

- $529 - 16GB SxS PRO Memory

- $5,000 - Mac Pro + Monitor

- $2,200 – MacBook Pro*

- $1,000 – Final Cut Studio

- $2,000 – Tripod + Bags/Cases + Stuff
________________________________________________
- $17,028 – Total Minimum Cost

HOW ABOUT THAT ?!

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

AND ANOTHER OPTION:


- $2,500 - Canon 5DMKII

- $1500 - a small Lens-set

- $350 - CF-Cards+ Reader

- $5,000 - Mac Pro + Monitor

- $2,200 – MacBook Pro*

- $1,000 – Final Cut Studio

- $1,500 – Tripod + Bags/Cases + Stuff
________________________________________________
- $14,058 – Total Minimum Cost

AND HOW ABOUT THAT ?!

and for me ... i have a MacPro and FCP already so its more like $8k... isn't it ?

 

[Tim Hole]

I've seen my 5DMKII footage projected on a massive screen from a 2K Christie projector, and it looked simply brilliant.

Nice

Glad it stood up to the challenge. The only time I have seen them in action was coverage shots on a feature set I was on last year.

@Michael - wouldn't some kind of FF kit be necessary with these kind of cams? And what about balanced audio? Do you have some kind of audio build it?

BTW you could really cut the price short and build a PC. If you are on looking at minimum...why is everyone suggesting a MAC PRO?

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

Nice

Glad it stood up to the challenge. The only time I have seen them in action was coverage shots on a feature set I was on last year.

@Michael - wouldn't some kind of FF kit be necessary with these kind of cams? And what about balanced audio? Do you have some kind of audio build it?

BTW you could really cut the price short and build a PC. If you are on looking at minimum...why is everyone suggesting a MAC PRO?

INDEED FF Kid + Rig would be nice for 5DMkII ... well maybe i have to add $1k then

and MacPro is "better" for that ... haha ... or at least more fun ... and FCP is Mac only ... AVID & Premiere not my first choice of Software anyway

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What sort of prosumer doesn't already have the adobe creative bundle? Even if you just need photoshop it's only slightly more to add premiere and AE.

What sort of consumer doesn't have a relatively modern PC made in the last 4-5 years?

Why would a RED need a tripod but not a DSLR? If you want to do high quality production you need a good tripod and fluid head unless everything is locked off.

 

[Jesse Korosi]

When dealing with any DSLR footage I have received for a project that will want to do an offline to online workflow or even to just use one file type the whole way through there workflow. You still need to convert it from the .H264 it was shot in. This can take just as long as it would take to convert the .R3Ds into your offline media. And then at least in the RED world your master file recorded from camera (.R3D) will be your Online file for final reconnect.
When dealing with the H264 all of my clients have asked for a conversion for there Online files...
Also I know Jay touched on this but in terms of workflow for audio....or multi camera shooting...or reconnecting any files...there is no TC on the DSLRs.... his is a huge issue.

The image you can get from most of these DSLR cameras is great if your DP is really on the ball. But if he is not, I would bet you couldn't have the range to adjust too far from the original baked in image before making the shot unusable.

 

[Ryan Patch]

There are a million different combinations that you can give yourself, a million different equipment setups that you may want... the bottom line is that you will buy what you have the money to buy, and work up from there. There was some excellent advice given here; to start with what you can afford, and work from there.

A word: what will make you a valuable commodity, one that is worth paying for, is your skills. Your attitude. Your resourcefulness. Your artistry. NOT ONLY your equipment - if it is just about your equipment then you will be outdated when the next firmware/software/camera comes around, and that's a loosing battle. Also, you will have to compete with rental houses like Adorama (in NYC) who offer dirt-cheap rental rates that will most certainly put you out of business.

Which brings me to...
1) Who do you think is a TRUE REDUSER?!?!?!
- The true REDUSER is someone who owns a camera and operates it. We are geeks and artists, but people who, in general, have pioneering independent strategies, think big with the resources that we have, demand excellence in our equipment, and operate our equipment with precision and excellence. Numerous rental houses own RED cameras. These are not REDUSERS - they are RED renters - they want to make money off the camera, simple as that. There are numerous people who will rent the camera for their project - they are not REDUSERS - they are REDRENTERS: people who will rent the best-in-class camera they can find the month of their shooting. The REDUSER is someone who is willing to put in the time to master slightly complicated cutting-edge equipment in order to produce consistent stunning results. The REDUSER is a person who's ready to roll with the punches, do digging, innovate in new ways in order to get as close as possible to the bleeding edge of technology to achieve the best they can.

2)What kinda of budget do you need to SUCCESSFULLY shoot and edit with a RED.
- A RED ONE will vary from the budget you'll need with Scarlet and Epic. Are you speaking about R1 or your proposed Scarlet? Renting or purchasing? A film or a production company? In general, the answer is sort of what you'd expect: more than you'd need if you were going to shoot with a 5D or EX3, but much, much less than if you were to shoot with any sort of film or ARRI or Panavision digital.

3)Is RED Pro-summer, should it be, or go all PRO?
- I can see that you are right on that line right now, and frankly, I think that RED is too. You can see it with their EPIC roll-out plans, they are letting people who are willing to go pro line up first, followed by people who just want "a product that works" significantly after. I will say that I have seen a number of people go from pro-sumer to pro, on the backs of RED business. The idea for Scarlet is clearly to bring in pro-sumers, but in my opinion, given the nature of a REDUSER, will always require a pro-sumer who's ready to do the dirty work to get good images. There will always be those who want to make good images without any work, and the 7D is filling this market *very* nicely. The RED cameras are for people who want to make amazing images with somewhere between a little (Scarlet?) and a lot (R1) of work.

4) What do you have to charge to feed yourself and camera/computer while keeping clients happy?
- For all of my mouth, I actually had to sell my RED because I was not able to make enough with it, and wanted to take my career in a different direction. Take that as you will.

5) Do DSLR sales have the slack that Scarlet wishes to take?
No, but Scarlet will offer something completely different that DSLRs offer. Again, shooting great looking plug-and-play video is great - and Canons are great for that - but if you're willing to learn about color science, processing RAW image data, editing offline/online, etc, you will be richly rewarded. It's not only the resolution, which even the 3k scarlet outdoes the 5D in, but the RAW data that the RED takes in, the genius of REDCODE, the way it handles aliasing and sharpening, the options that it gives you for coloring, it's audio features... current DSLRs just don't compare. I predict a lot of people will purchase Scarlets upon release, only to be disappointed they don't work right out of the box.

So, there's my thoughts. Have at em.

 

[El Deanio]

It's simple...

It's simple...

As someone who's used both the difference is quite clear...

VDSLR is an excellent cut-price solution for short-form (preferably non-synch) projects that don't require you to capture fast movement.

RED is for everything else

 

[Peter Moretti]

Hello there and thank you for tuning in. Well let’s start here, who is a REDUSER? I wanna give the opportunity for the video community to speak out and dial us in as to what you do for a living and how RED helps you accomplish video for your clients.

Since 2008 I’ve wanted a Scarlet, delays…delays…delays…so Feb/09 I made the jump for a Mark II which has severed me well, especially starting off as a freelance video guy and filmmaker. I hate to say it but after burning out 8GB of RAM on my Mac Pro up-converting to 1080p ProRes files I began to wonder how am I going to pull this off with a Scarlet? Do I even really need one? At what point can my clients tell the difference between 720p-1080p-2K-3K-4K-5K-6K (Seriously who requests more than 4K)?

I know that’s alot of questions but USA Today posted an article on DSLR and accessories sales going up in the past few months.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2010-02-10-techvideo10_ST_N.htm
I’ve held back on camera support for my Mark II cause I’ve been saving up for a Scarlet but the more and more I use my Mark II, I feel better off. I’ve been waiting so long for a Scarlet that I kinda don’t care anymore, everyone is always shocked at the images I produce and at what point am I going to need more?

So I have five questions for you (the 3rd is personal). 1) Who do you think is a TRUE REDUSER?!?!?! 2)What kinda of budget do you need to SUCCESSFULLY shoot and edit with a RED. 3)Is RED Pro-summer, should it be, or go all PRO? 4) What do you have to charge to feed yourself and camera/computer while keeping clients happy? 5) Do DSLR sales have the slack that Scarlet wishes to take?

I’m sure Scarlets will fly off the shelves first Q upon release, but I have a feeling the used market is going to be sustainable because the average pro-summer can’t cut the footage or are blessed to upgrade to a 35mm Scarlet/Epic. Also what if the Mark II gets another price drop and firmware update not to mention Mark III in the very near future…2011? Basically what I’m trying to say if you don’t already have a client base or $15,000 , than don’t bother with any RED?!?! DSLR has a workflow that’s steady and easy not to mention cost effective habit to generate higher margins with the same quality if not better.

- $5,245 - Fixed lens Scarlet kit + 16gb CF card

- $5,000 - Mac Pro + Monitor

- $2,200 – MacBook Pro*

- $1,000 – Final Cut Studio

- $2,500 – Tripod + Focus Puller + Support + Bags/Cases
________________________________________________
- $15,945 – Total Minimum Cost


*MacBook Pro - you’ll need a place to dump your one 16GB CF and is money better spent. If not use the $2,200 on more storage options.

I do not hate RED but I’m really concerned for them. I’m not a troll nor do I want trolls to post, please be honest if you do. This is a high priority topic for all of us out there who really do video and love it.

This absurd. The differences are these:

1) You need to buy a follow focus and lenses for the vDSLR.
2) You need to buy recording medium for the fixed Scarlet.

The computer, monitor, NLE, tripod, cases, surge protectors, zebra print carrying straps, packs of Marlboros to puff while composing a shot, coffee to drink while staring at FCP render, and whatever else you need, feel you need or want to use to shoot and edit equally apply to both.

 

[Shawn R]

I think whatever choice you make you have to take all user opinions with a grain of salt regardless of how long they've been in the industry. I find the best opinions or posts are where you the reader are left with questions, not answers.