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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

White Balance

Gibby said:
Yes, filters for EFP lenses screw right onto the front end of the lens. Based on what the RED Team said on white balance, going from outside to inside in a rapidly changing environment, tapping the Auto White Balance button should satisfy you're needs when shooting in an EFP, run n' gun style.
Click to expand...


Thanks Gibby, that is excellent, I very rarely use auto white balance, just as I very rarely use auto levels on my mic pre's. But there are occasions where I do have to use it, such as following someone as they move from indoors to outdoors and vice-versa. It will be nice to have that option if I am ever shooting RGB, which seems unlikely. Though, I am guessing it would be preferable to keyframe white balance adjustments on Redcode raw in post, that way I don't get any unintended changes while indoors or out.

Do you know off-hand what the data rate will be for RGB 1080 in comparison to 2k Redcode raw? That is the only reason I could see myself using it at all (rarely, if ever). I am hoping that by shooting primarily in 2k Redcode raw I can pull off lots of stuff that would be impossible in 1080 RGB. (Image stabilization being a key factor, I'm hoping to manage some steadycam-esque stuff by shooting in 2k for delivery in 1080. Also for very slight keyframed camera moves.)

Thanks again,

Tim
 
TimothyD said:
Do you know off-hand what the data rate will be for RGB 1080 in comparison to 2k Redcode raw? That is the only reason I could see myself using it at all (rarely, if ever). I am hoping that by shooting primarily in 2k Redcode raw I can pull off lots of stuff that would be impossible in 1080 RGB. (Image stabilization being a key factor, I'm hoping to manage some steadycam-esque stuff by shooting in 2k for delivery in 1080. Also for very slight keyframed camera moves.)

Thanks again,

Tim
Click to expand...

I don't have those estimated data rates in front of me, and to my knowledge they have not been finalized. There has been some mention of variable data rates - user adjustable. When its locked down we'll hear about it. As a guess though, the data rate of 1080p RBG would be significantly higher than that of 2k REDCODE RAW.
 
Ah, then there really would be no benefit at all by going with RGB. That is the only reason I would ever consider it. RAW seems like it will be the hot ticket.

Thanks again Gibby,

BTW, I'll be contacting TV stations to see if I can get any donations of gear soon, and will let you know how that turns out. Thanks again for the advice on that...

Tim
 
TimothyD said:
Ah, then there really would be no benefit at all by going with RGB. That is the only reason I would ever consider it. RAW seems like it will be the hot ticket.

Thanks again Gibby,

BTW, I'll be contacting TV stations to see if I can get any donations of gear soon, and will let you know how that turns out. Thanks again for the advice on that...

Tim
Click to expand...

I'll be shooting REDCODE RAW almost exclusively because of the many advantages it has over RGB. Also, I'm used to shooting and editing RAW from my DSLR work, so the learning curve for using RC RAW isn't that steep. That said, there are situations where RGB makes sense, and I'm glad the RGB capability is included in RED One.

Good luck on getting some equipment donated! You may find some luck there. Be sure to bait them with the positive PR they can get for donating their used equipment to help your school out.
 
Thanks Gibby,

I am crossing my fingers I get a decent used HD lens out of it. I'll probably e-mail every TV station out there in a mass e-mail. I hate mass e-mails myself, so I hate to do it that way, but it seems like the most efficient way to try to get something.

Thanks,

Tim
 
Whether you use screw-on or clamp-on filters or rectangular filters in a clip-on mattebox, you'll want to use ND filters outdoors, and probably a sunshade. Filters that can be dropped in a filter tray slot tend to be faster to switch between than screw-on filters.

Just remember that in direct sunlight at 50 ASA on a clear day, at 24 fps with a 1/48 shutter, the exposure is usually around f/16.

And the RED camera is more like a 250 to 320 ASA camera, as are many video cameras, which is why pro ENG cameras have heavy ND filters in the internal filter wheel. It's not unusual to have four or six stops worth of ND filtration on a sunny day if you want to reduce depth of field to something manageable, but as soon as the light drops or you move into shade, you need to be able to quickly swap filters.

It's also not unusual to use a Pola as a pseudo ND.60 filter.
 
TimothyD said:
I am crossing my fingers I get a decent used HD lens out of it. I'll probably e-mail every TV station out there in a mass e-mail. I hate mass e-mails myself, so I hate to do it that way, but it seems like the most efficient way to try to get something.
Click to expand...

Be cautious about mailing too many in one go, your ISP may not like it, better to do it in a number of batches. It all depends on your ISP but if they think you are a spammer they won't be happy.

M
 
Adjustable rating!

Adjustable rating!

This forum is hardly the place for a big thread on the Sony F23 but there are features on that rig that I think are terrific.

The most impressive to me was the in-camera speed ramping: by using "variable negative gain" the camera compensates for you while you vary the frame fate from 1 to 60fps without changing the stop or the shutter angle.

This got me thinking about negative gain being applied in the camera electronics which I would think is not that difficult for what is essentially a super-computer in the RedOne. If someone with a better understanding of the nuts and bolts of what would be required to implement negative gain would like to tell me what an idiot I am I'll take it like a man, but until then...

How about user control over light sensitivity (working ISO rating) on camera? No need for ND filters (though I think a good polarizer can really help saturation and would use a clip on matte box with the pola in it for outdoor, full sun situations, even in run and gun) and in some future firmware version the RedOne might even be able to mimic the speed ramping in the F23 :detective2: .

Gibby refers to the RedOne as being most like a DSLR. On my Canon I always select an ISO rating first (100, 200, 400, 800 or even 1,600) before I pick the stop or the shutter. Assuming you wanted a 180 degree shutter on the RedOne you could essentially dial your stop by adjusting the sensitivity rating. Yes, you can do that with a box of NDs but wouldn't it be nice to have one less pack of filters to cart around, keep clean, etc and concentrate on other aspects of acquisition?
 
Nope, you need ND because all gain effects is how the image is processed in the analogue phase before the a-to-d conversion, and basically, it cannot stop overexposure by gaining down the way an ND can.

Graeme
 
Lowering gain is easy. Having it act as an ND to avoid over-exposure is impossible.

Graeme
 
Remember that -6db, which is about the most negative gain a pro ENG camera generally offers, is only a one-stop compensation, hardly enough when the light is like an f/32 outside!

The ramps on the F23 tests shown at NAB were from 24 fps to 60 fps and back, not 1 to 60 and back. 24 to 60 is around a stop and a half adjustment. With a RAW camera you could essentially stick the exposure in the middle and just time out the exposure change in post from ramping, if ramping in-camera were an option. Or just shoot at the higher frame rate and add the speed ramp in post and not worry about exposure changes, just the shutter effect changing.

I don't see what the big deal is with using ND filters on a camera is... I mean, it would be unusual to not a least have a sunshade on the camera lens outdoors in sunlight, so you could have a round ND filter attached there too, just like some people put a UV filter there as a lens protector.

Optical filters are one of the simplest and most effective methods of image control and manipulation ever invented.

Now, since the RED camera doesn't have a spinning mirror reflex shutter, I wonder if there is room between the lens and the OLPF/infrared filter for an internal filter wheel, although being a 35mm-sized sensor, it would be larger than one for a 2/3" CCD camera, maybe too large to be practical, or too close and thus risk dust being photographed into the image.

The advantage of using ND filters to control depth of field is that you also have a more consistent noise level than if you changed ASA ratings shot by shot to handle light levels, just as you don't change shutter speed shot by shot either just to handle light, because it affects your motion reproduction. That's the main difference between still photography and motion picture photography, the need for shot-to-shot matching within a sequence.
 
We did look at filter wheels, but they realy just don't fit if you want full PL mount lens compatibility (I think).

Graeme
 
Yes, I figured it got tight in there...

I remember discussing this once with Al Mayer, Jr., one of the designers of the Genesis -- the Panavision mount is a little farther away than the Arri PL-mount, much to the annoyance of many people (or as Joe Dunton once told me "the problem with a Panaflex is that the shutter is in the wrong f---ing place!") but one of the side benefits has traditionally been the ability to fit a filter slot in front of gate, and in the case of the Genesis, back off the OLPF a little and reduce the chance of dust being sharply rephotographed.

I don't think the Genesis kept the behind-the-lens filter slot idea -- the main reason for one has traditionally been for the operator not to have to look through heavy ND filtration in the optical viewfinder, but with an electronic viewfinder, this is a non-issue.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I suspect that with these wider-latitude digital cameras, the noise issues from rating it at 5500K versus 3200K are not significant enough to warrant color-correction filters.
Click to expand...

David,

I accept completely that the compromise of rating at 3200k with a chip that renders white at 5000k (I think after re-reading some posts this is where the chip sits) would, in most tungsten situations, make more sense than throwing away 1 1/2+ stops ..

Here in the UK we see grey bleak days that have hours so blue that I would feel much happier optically correcting (even if I wanted to retain some of the blue)...you sunkissed Californian types might not have such problems ;-)

To further agree.....I really can't see how any red users can avoid optical filtration... If they are happy to live with the latitude loss of pulling 17000k to 3200k (for that warm film they are making) that's one thing.... But the impact, as you have already mentioned, of not shooting with ND is really not trivial. Especially for you 'sunkissed Californian types'...

I realise a matte box and a basic set of filters seems expensive to allot of people on this list... They feel overprice for the material involved.. I would favour working with a 2nd hand Sachtler head, a full Matte box and basic set of ND's than a new Oconnor head and no filtration and a bit of black wrap to deal with flare.. It all a question of how people spend their money and they will have to spend some money. Or as is more usual in film/Tv they can 'hire'!

regards

Michael Lindsay
 
Box on

Box on

I guess my fiendish plan to eliminate the need for a pack of ND filters won't work, bummer. For the record I have a bellows style matte box mounted on my current rig and use it regularly for EFP as well as Cine style shoots - I am one of the convergence shooters Gibby often refers to and have become dependent on a matte box. Yes, even for run and gun I just leave it on and have even stashed 4x4 filters in my cargo pockets for quick insertion.
Moreover, even though I do have a traditional video camera filter wheel it does not have an ND option at 3200K so in order to shorten DoF I use Schnieder NDs. But I digress.

The more interesting issue in the evolving world of motion media is the actual or de-facto DI becoming commonplace. It begs the question of which manipulation is best done optically in front of the lens vs electronically in camera or digitally in post. There is a whole matrix of inter-related issues depending on the camera being used, the exposure environment, dynamic range and color gamut of the imager and recording system, material being shot, etc.

It is an exciting time to be an image maker and IMHO anyone who really wants to explore it thoroughly will heed the words of the David Mullen and others who sing the praises of optical filtration - its not just for projects with no DI or grade in the budget.
 
Michael, we have a trick whereby you don't loose the DR you think you'd loose. It's called the 'Highlight' slider in Redcine, which under unbalanced lighting conditions gives you an extra stop or so in the highlights. That said, DR loss through white balancing is negligible, and given the wonderful things colorists like to do to footage, you've got to remember than any adjustment to the image is going to have similar effects unless you nail it in camera which is just NOT how to shoot with a RAW camera.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Lowering gain is easy. Having it act as an ND to avoid over-exposure is impossible.

Graeme
Click to expand...

so Graeme, how does the selectable ISO work on DSLR's? I often shoot outdoors at 100ASA with no need for any ND filters (granted I'm limited to a fast shutter speed).

will Red have a selectabe ISO rating? It would be great so we can have the option of a completely noise free image at 100/200 or ramp it up to 1600 for low light shooting.
 
Answer is easy, "because you have a fast shutter speed". That is stopping the light over-filling the sensor.

Selectable ISO - yes, I think. Yes noise free at low ISO.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Nope, you need ND because all gain effects is how the image is processed in the analogue phase before the a-to-d conversion, and basically, it cannot stop overexposure by gaining down the way an ND can.

Graeme
Click to expand...

If I understand you right: the image is still too "hot" and this is the reason gaining down doesn't work?

Does gaining down affect image quality?

Martin
 
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