Which model will garner more rental interest - Raven or Scarlet-W?

[Ryan Farnes]

Hey all, just wanted to absorb some of the collective wisdom from the board. I'm a long lost ScarletUser.com member and am looking seriously at getting a Raven.

In considering renting it out as one way to help recoup the cost, I'm curious what some thoughts are on its draw as a rental package versus a Scarlet-W package, generally speaking. Despite Raven's stellar pedigree and capability, is the sensor size likely to relegate it behind Scarlet-W in the rental market?

Or will Raven's lower price point make it more attractive as an indie/entry-level rental option and actually produce more rental volume? What are your thoughts and opinions on each as rental options, weighing their different price points to acquire and recoup costs?

I could go for either, but my personal work will likely involve a lot of wildlife and the extra sensor crop is not a big issue....unless it is likely to significantly limit rental opportunity.

 

[jordan levy]

i think you should get which ever one works better for your personal work. both of these cameras will rent for the same amount to be determined by how much you charge for yourself with the camera, the market will be very small for each of these cameras by themselves. the price for the raven being about half, youd probably recoup the money for that camera faster.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

First of all, the rental rate for each camera should reflect it's cost - purchase and upkeep - of roughly 2%/day. That said, I expect the Raven will rent very well as it offers a "RED" option at a similar price to many inferior systems. So if your focus is on ROI, the Raven will fit the budget of a larger number of projects than Scarlet-W.

IMO, Jordan brings up the more salient issue - what do you want to shoot with? What kind of day rates are your current clientele (or clientele you are targeting) able to pay? Regional markets vary, different project types are more sensitive to cost, etc. I do a fair amount of TVCs, and for them the cost of the camera rental is rarely an issue as they are spending plenty of coin for the production as a whole. If doing documentaries is your thing, then getting the lowest cost camera that meets your quality benchmark makes more sense. Etc.

Cheers - #19

 

[Wil Wong]

If your clients shoot Music Videos, they will want slow motion. The slower the better. These 2 models won't compete well in the category for the most part. Nor will folks looking for the high resolution for CG work.

This leads to mostly owner operator and a few rental uses but it might be harder and harder to compete against similar cameras like folks owning black magic or Canon C300 etc (owning rather then renting).

My guess is that the rental cost will be between $250-400 price range (similar to the past Scarlet models) depending on the location and how many Red Owners there are renting out.

 

[Marc Hutchings]

interesting, why do you think the Raven is no good for those things? 240- 300 fps is pretty slow and 4,6k resolution is plenty for vfx work? I imagine most music video are still delivering at HD

 

[jordan levy]

interesting, why do you think the Raven is no good for those things? 240- 300 fps is pretty slow and 4,6k resolution is plenty for vfx work? I imagine most music video are still delivering at HD

yeah, im not sure what he is talking about, they both are literally perfect for music videos and both have great slow motion capabilities, better then an alexa actually.

 

[Marc Hutchings]

yea curious as to his concerns, there may be a valid point but for me personally i certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with 6k files for a 1080p music promo and I'm pretty vfx orientated, if i needed more than 240fps I'd probably be looking at hiring a phantom flex. I've just ordered a Raven with Music promos in mind. haven't looked into rental possibilities though.

 

[Dan Kanes]

Depends on who your potential rental clients are.

even at $100/day rental on Raven, many people in low budget would rather buy a camera, use it and sell it.

"pros" in rental want mount options (scarlet-W), interchangeable OLPF.

Raven seems very good to rent to drone people who might not own a camera, but again - probably looking at $100 for body rental, which would pay off in 60 days for the body.

Blair is pretty much right .

 

[Ugo Del]

yeah, im not sure what he is talking about, they both are literally perfect for music videos and both have great slow motion capabilities, better then an alexa actually.

Yes they are both great. I guess it was about the sensor size and the resolution. 4.5k on the Raven is widescreen only, if you want to shoot HD then it's limited to 4k, which is a 20.48mm wide sensor, versus 5k HD on the scarlet which is 25.6mm sensor wide (23.8mm for the Alexa / 24.9mm for S35). Not everybody care about that but many do, for FOV, crop factor, DOF, reframing, etc. Plus people can change OLPF, use PL mount, and get 3Dlut with the scarlet. So obviously the scarlet is a better camera, but the Raven is a fantastic camera which will probably shoot tons of music videos.

 

[Maik Müller]

It really depends on your client-base, your pricing and the complete kit you're going to offer. We can only repeat the obvious things here, the decision is yours. You know your numbers and clients, we don't.

There are many different factors here. You already know that Scarlet-W is the better camera and as such it would get more attraction. So you have to give your clients some reasons to choose you and your RAVEN over other offerings. RAVEN is probably the camera that will get mostly owned instead of rented, but thats just my opinion.

Keep in mind that there will be many RAVENs and Scarlet-Ws on the market soon, not to mention EPICs and WEAPONs. The market isn't predictable and the prices will go only one direction.

So my advice, if you buy a camera then don't choose it solely for a business plan based on rentals. Choose the camera you want and can work with.

 

[Wil Wong]

My experience is in the indie hip hop scene here in Toronto. Most demand high frame rate BUT want high resolution as well. They like to say they are using the best RED to colleagues and the industry (despite being indie). That said, it isn't enough to have one or the other. These are the folks willing to pay. Anything less and they will simply buy their own camera. Competition for 4k cameras are about to become like having a DSLR...(nothing special). That's just my opinion and situation here (may not be this way in your community/location).

 

[Gene Sung]

I personally think these two cameras are more owner / operator cameras and not quite worth it for the serious headache and stress of rentals. Seems like for legit rentals (meaning projects with budgets), Weapon Mag is more of a starting point. I’m personally getting the S-W to be able to include it on jobs where I am booked. Not looking to rent it out by itself. I feel like cameras at this rental price level $300 to $400 (if you’re lucky in LA), it’s better to just use it with clients you trust; or only rent it trusted clients and not the general public. Washington DC you might get a better rate since not everyone has one like in LA.

You can find ways to rent the camera without you being there, but I feel like the market that S-W and Raven caters to - Indy productions and broke people looking to squeeze every penny is just not worth it. On Share Grid and Craigslist, I’m seeing Dragons for as low as $175, and as independent owners those probably will be the random people renting from you. For that low of an amount, it’s just NOT worth it for the wear and tear and damage that will happen to your camera.

And what if they break your camera and it’s out for several weeks? That meager $200 you made is nothing compared to the ensuing headache.

 

[Björn Benckert]

My experience is in the indie hip hop scene here in Toronto. Most demand high frame rate BUT want high resolution as well. They like to say they are using the best RED to colleagues and the industry (despite being indie). That said, it isn't enough to have one or the other. These are the folks willing to pay. Anything less and they will simply buy their own camera. Competition for 4k cameras are about to become like having a DSLR...(nothing special). That's just my opinion and situation here (may not be this way in your community/location).

Agree,
It does not matter if you got a weapon or a raven. it will not rent much if it does not come with all the accessories. Like a full magliner with stuff to it. There is so much 4k options out there. When I need a second camera I never need to pay more than 300USD for a kit, usually that has been a epic dragon with accessories. So in comparison with that a raven with not much to it... how much will you charge? 100 USD a day?

 

[Nick Morrison]

I personally feel Scarlet-W is much more rentable. 5K/Super 35 Sensor, Swappable Mounts (including PL), and interchangeable OLPFS. It's certainly positioned to be a more complete cinema camera.

 

[sergio arguello]

I don't think either are in a real space for rentability. Why would anyone with a budget want either of these cameras? More than likely there is an epic dragon for the same price out there that can do more. except perhaps the pro-res aspects of these newer models and thats no longer a limitation as you can edit with the raw files these days. 2c

 

[Abiodun Shote]

What's the real difference between the 2 cameras? The PL mount! At least to the directors and producers (who determine the budget). So the question then becomes if you think (in your market), these clients will be willing to pay extra for Scarlet W (becos of the PL they want to use) or just go rent a WMg. In my 5yrs existing in my market, my bet is on Raven and WMg. And don't forget there are still some Epic D in play which will drop in rate once WMg gets everywhere in the market. So the new battle is Raven/Scarlet W/Epic D!

 

[Nick Morrison]

I don't think either are in a real space for rentability. Why would anyone with a budget want either of these cameras? More than likely there is an epic dragon for the same price out there that can do more. except perhaps the pro-res aspects of these newer models and thats no longer a limitation as you can edit with the raw files these days. 2c

True - but at 5K, Scarlet-W may have better color and cleaner blacks than Epic-D at 5K. Which is worth considering. And it does Prores.

 

[jordan levy]

i cant even remember which thread or how many times this comes up. everyones world is different, that is the beauty of the affordability of RED cameras.
for me, like many of you already commented, it's not going to be huge market for rentals for either, that is why probably no rental houses will own either of them, unless they are using the raven for drones or specialty rigs.
but, so many directors and dps have just picked up a raven for their personal camera because of affordability and lens compatibility, replacing a dslr or pocket camera, so i can see these popping up all over on sets as an extra camera, they will be able to rent them for whatever the budget allows. even for my 5D, i once had, i could charge anywhere from 500-1000 depending on what i had with it, monitors, lenses, slider, support, etc.
the only true rental line going in to the future will be the weapon, all the houses i rent from already are switching every epic body for the weapon. i doubt ill see another epic on set ever.
i, like most people i know, that just want something, chose the raven with no expectations on rentals, but the occasional extra camera for low cost will be a plus…
#NO-DSLRSONMYSET

 

[Nick Morrison]

What's the real difference between the 2 cameras? The PL mount! At least to the directors and producers (who determine the budget). So the question then becomes if you think (in your market), these clients will be willing to pay extra for Scarlet W (becos of the PL they want to use) or just go rent a WMg. In my 5yrs existing in my market, my bet is on Raven and WMg. And don't forget there are still some Epic D in play which will drop in rate once WMg gets everywhere in the market. So the new battle is Raven/Scarlet W/Epic D!

In my market, we only shoot HD, so Raven is effectively 4KHD. And that makes a big difference to me. Scarlet-W's 5KHD is a pretty serious upgrade for the kind of work we do, and makes it a VERY viable camera.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

I own a small rental boutique in a mid-sized market. There is often considerable downward pressure on prices because typical budgets here aren't too large. While I'm sure that many local owner/ops will gravitate to Raven because of the low entry price, it has a lot of limitations. For rentals, I see the flexibility of Scarlet-W making it the perfect fit for this niche, given it's advantages over Raven…5K, PL mount, 1D LUTs, changeable OLPF, etc. For my higher-end customers, I am supplying Weapon MG (and eventually CF 8K), but I expect that Scarlet-W will successfully handle much of the lower-end business. Hopefully this will allow Weapon rental prices to maintain at a realistic level for decent ROI, which is the challenge with technology and capabilities changing so quickly.