Misha Engel
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BMPCC 4K is great for FHD/2K work.
BMPCC 6K is a good start for UHD/4k work and it won't break the bank.
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WHICH IS THE BEST USED CAMERA INVESTMENT UNDER $10000 ? -Newbie
- Thread starter Takor Arrey
- Start date
BMPCC 4K is great for FHD/2K work.
BMPCC 6K is a good start for UHD/4k work and it won't break the bank.
- Thread starter
- #62
Takor Arrey
Well-known member
there's never enough money, as there's always something "better"
but just to extend one of my other posts: there's tripods, fluid heads etc that will last you a decade or more - well worth investing properly into that
isn't the Komodo in your price range ? not sure if it is with AKS though
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Speaking about tripods, I picked up a Sachtler Hot Pod CF10 the other day ( not included in my $10K budget). The package came eith a Sachtler Ace XL fluid head. I like that the tripod is very lightweight.
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- #63
Takor Arrey
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I don't know if Blackmagic is the way to go, I know they make for great coloring tools and data management. But I'm not so sure about their cameras, I owned the first generation BMCC and I always thought of them as being disposable as a portable flash light.
Misha Engel
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It's your money and good luck with finding a more versatile and higher quality camera in that price range(even a second, third, etc.. hand).
I never liked the Black Magic cameras much, but I do think the 4.6k and onward are pretty impressive and even considered buying the 4k pocket (which looks pretty darned cool).
But I have literally never seen one used on a professional set except some lower end corporate work. I'm not saying it's the wrong choice–as regards image and technical specs for the money, those cameras are difficult to compete with–just that it isn't necessarily the right one depending on your goals. Depends on the market you're trying to enter.
I agree very strongly with whomever posted that you should know your style and your audience, though. Without knowing that, it's hard to recommend anything in particular...
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Karim D. Ghantous
Well-known member
I'm not a VistaVision guy but check the Panasonic S1H thread. That camera is better than we think it is, and I'd easily take it over a Scarlet X, though maybe not an EPIC X (though I need to find out more).
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
$10k would buy a very nicely outfitted Zcam. It's as good as the Gemini in low light, 4k prores, MFT mount means it's adaptable to anything, CFAST media, there's not much not to love. All the flavors of prores...For $10k, you could get an excellent monitor, FF, tripod, some very decent lenses. Just saying.
Nick
Nick
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- #68
Takor Arrey
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The thing with newer camera manufacturers is that they may not be as good with after sales service, their products may not have good support systems to back the users. If I am starting out, I don'thave the luxury to test the waters with these new products.
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
True, however, jump on the zcam e2 FB page. The actual guys who make the cameras answer questions, take feature requests and are actively involved with the community. Also, any older red is not going to be supported at all, and most used cameras are going to have issues in support. I bought a zcam as a bcam for my gemini, and it's so cheep, there's almost no reason not to ( I already had cfast media, batts, monitors, and a mft to pl adpater, so it was just a $2k body and $60 cage and I was off to the races). I have been very, very impressed. I think cameras have plateaued and you can really get exception images out of a relatively cheap platform at this point. The thing shoots 4k at 120fps (actually I think it's 160 now), and at the price point, if you have to upgrade or want to switch to something else, you are not married to a large investment. Lenses carry over, camera support cariies over, monitors, basically if you have all the other stuff, and the camera is cheep, you are protecting your investment. I just see getting a zcam as an oportunity to spend more money on lenses, follow focus, all the stuff which you can keep on using after the camera is long gone.
Just a thought.
Nick
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- #70
Takor Arrey
Well-known member
Nick, I think you have a point here. I am in Toronto Canada and I see they do not have a local distributor here. That makes it challenging for me to at least try it.
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Jump on the FB group and see if anyone near you has one. Good bunch of folks. Z CAM E2 , it's a closed group, just ask to join.
Nick
Nick
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- #72
Takor Arrey
Well-known member
That is quite impressive, especially if one is producing indie narrative on a budget. For the price it's good. I don't know if its the color correction on most of the footage I have seen so far (which could work well when shooting products). The cinema look may not work so well when doing documentaries and interviews.
Based on your answers, (and really for most people) I would propose what I call a "Ladder Approach"
Precept 1: Even if Budgeted for $10k, try to spend as little as possible because you will find you want MORE soon.
Precept 2: Buy the cheapest New or Used Camera which could potentially share upward mobility via accessory or Lens compatibility as you trade up lenses and/or camera bodies.
Precept 3: Know and Embrace that you will be changing cameras within 6 months to one year.
Based on your client base, I recommend trying to buy the newest, but lightly used body you can. Start with Canon EF mount lenses. I would recommend the following Lens kits as your base starter pack. Don't skimp on Media, filters, lenses. This represents a mediated but no-compromise approach to kick off.
Starting with lenses
Pack 1:
Tokina 11-20 f2.8 (stills model)
Sigma 18-35 f1.8 (stills model)
Tokina 24-70 f2.8 ATX Pro (stills model)
Sigma 70-200 f2.8 Sport (stills model)
All zooms, ready to go, you can make "art" or you can make inventor/investor videos without a camera assistant with these 4 lenses, and you're basically ready for almost anything.
Pack 2
Canon L series 16-35 f2.8 V3
Canon L series 24-70 f2.8 V2
Canon L series 70-200 f2.8 V3 IS
Used Sigma ART 24MM F1.4
USED Sigma ART 50mm f1.4
Pretty Rich zoom range punctuated by two fast primes.
Filters:
Test after you get your camera and see what filters you like and how they match your filters. Don't waste your time with a "variable ND" -personal opinion, get a good Polarizer and a full range of ND. Explore Diffusion filters if you want, to taste.
Now on to camera bodies:
If you can get a used BMD Ursa Mini Pro G1 or G2 with EF mount for less than retail list, DO IT. Get yourself 6 of the cheapest GOLD MOUNT batteries you can on Amazon. Get 2 4 bank chargers on Amazon.
Get yourself 4 or 6 of this CFAST card and a SOLID PAIR of CFAST readers
https://amzn.to/2LdDIJZ
Why these items ? Compatible for Today, Ready for near tomorrow - example when you switch up to a Komodo, or a Zcam or a...
Personally I would NOT buy a ZCAM E2 today - the "desireable ZCAM ones" are right around the corner if that's your route. The UMP G1 or G2 is POWERFUL for the kind of Content you want to create today, and in a form factor that actually gives you better ability to be production ready (timecode, SDI ports, built in 1/2 decent monitor, XLR for audio, headphone jack, ready for Gold Mount batteries...
GET INSURANCE for your Gear.
Those lenses will adapt to Komodo, or a Panasonic S1H, or a SONY whatever whatever... or a CANON whatever whatever...
Built in ND is a lifesaver on all of those cams, and will be available via an intermediary adapter on Komodo for instance when that becomes available.
Don't wait too long but DO shop carefully and find a good nearly new USED body as you said.
If you want to go even lower entry point, get a Pocket 4K BMD from someone dumping theirs to go to the 6K, or try to snag a 6K (possible you may be waiting a while)... you can speed boost to the 4K model... still recommend going with the gold mount batts, just build or buy a little belt pack for the gold mount batts.
For the kind of content you're looking to create, you can't go wrong with:
BMD UMP G1 or G2
Canon C300MK1
Canon C300MK2
Pocket 4K
Pocket 6K
Maybe a Kinefinity Mavo if you feel like being different (image quality rocks)
Zcam (newer models when they drop)
maaaaybe a Sony Fs7 MK1 or MK2
maaaaybe a sony fs5
again - all of these will support the lenses above, not all of them will support the CFAST...
You can also sell the CFAST and the Lenses when you're ready to move up and move on... they'll hold their value decently. You should be able to extract good value while holding good value with any of those choices...
Look at the package as a working capital asset - it will fluctuate in value, but try to extract max value while you have it, don't become precious with it and hold on to it past its useful lifecycle for YOUR needs. switch modes when its time... LOTS will be in transition this coming 18 months I think.
Precept 1: Even if Budgeted for $10k, try to spend as little as possible because you will find you want MORE soon.
Precept 2: Buy the cheapest New or Used Camera which could potentially share upward mobility via accessory or Lens compatibility as you trade up lenses and/or camera bodies.
Precept 3: Know and Embrace that you will be changing cameras within 6 months to one year.
Based on your client base, I recommend trying to buy the newest, but lightly used body you can. Start with Canon EF mount lenses. I would recommend the following Lens kits as your base starter pack. Don't skimp on Media, filters, lenses. This represents a mediated but no-compromise approach to kick off.
Starting with lenses
Pack 1:
Tokina 11-20 f2.8 (stills model)
Sigma 18-35 f1.8 (stills model)
Tokina 24-70 f2.8 ATX Pro (stills model)
Sigma 70-200 f2.8 Sport (stills model)
All zooms, ready to go, you can make "art" or you can make inventor/investor videos without a camera assistant with these 4 lenses, and you're basically ready for almost anything.
Pack 2
Canon L series 16-35 f2.8 V3
Canon L series 24-70 f2.8 V2
Canon L series 70-200 f2.8 V3 IS
Used Sigma ART 24MM F1.4
USED Sigma ART 50mm f1.4
Pretty Rich zoom range punctuated by two fast primes.
Filters:
Test after you get your camera and see what filters you like and how they match your filters. Don't waste your time with a "variable ND" -personal opinion, get a good Polarizer and a full range of ND. Explore Diffusion filters if you want, to taste.
Now on to camera bodies:
If you can get a used BMD Ursa Mini Pro G1 or G2 with EF mount for less than retail list, DO IT. Get yourself 6 of the cheapest GOLD MOUNT batteries you can on Amazon. Get 2 4 bank chargers on Amazon.
Get yourself 4 or 6 of this CFAST card and a SOLID PAIR of CFAST readers
https://amzn.to/2LdDIJZ
Why these items ? Compatible for Today, Ready for near tomorrow - example when you switch up to a Komodo, or a Zcam or a...
Personally I would NOT buy a ZCAM E2 today - the "desireable ZCAM ones" are right around the corner if that's your route. The UMP G1 or G2 is POWERFUL for the kind of Content you want to create today, and in a form factor that actually gives you better ability to be production ready (timecode, SDI ports, built in 1/2 decent monitor, XLR for audio, headphone jack, ready for Gold Mount batteries...
GET INSURANCE for your Gear.
Those lenses will adapt to Komodo, or a Panasonic S1H, or a SONY whatever whatever... or a CANON whatever whatever...
Built in ND is a lifesaver on all of those cams, and will be available via an intermediary adapter on Komodo for instance when that becomes available.
Don't wait too long but DO shop carefully and find a good nearly new USED body as you said.
If you want to go even lower entry point, get a Pocket 4K BMD from someone dumping theirs to go to the 6K, or try to snag a 6K (possible you may be waiting a while)... you can speed boost to the 4K model... still recommend going with the gold mount batts, just build or buy a little belt pack for the gold mount batts.
For the kind of content you're looking to create, you can't go wrong with:
BMD UMP G1 or G2
Canon C300MK1
Canon C300MK2
Pocket 4K
Pocket 6K
Maybe a Kinefinity Mavo if you feel like being different (image quality rocks)
Zcam (newer models when they drop)
maaaaybe a Sony Fs7 MK1 or MK2
maaaaybe a sony fs5
again - all of these will support the lenses above, not all of them will support the CFAST...
You can also sell the CFAST and the Lenses when you're ready to move up and move on... they'll hold their value decently. You should be able to extract good value while holding good value with any of those choices...
Look at the package as a working capital asset - it will fluctuate in value, but try to extract max value while you have it, don't become precious with it and hold on to it past its useful lifecycle for YOUR needs. switch modes when its time... LOTS will be in transition this coming 18 months I think.
[/QUOTE]
Hey Dan, any recommendations for insurance? I'm in a somewhat similar situation to Takor. Only taking a bit of a different direction. Probably going to start a business on the side of a day job, but will own a lot of gear/cameras.
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Zakaree Sandberg
Well-known member
Investment? None.. cameras are generally a bad "investment" especially used.. if its a career investment and you dont have clients who demand a piece of kit (which drives me crazy) then i would say go with a nicely rigged bmpcc4k/6k or ursa g2..
While the Alexa classic still has that great alexa image.. the canera is just to big and heavy, and it is a battery hog. You would have to get heavy duty legs and at minimum a 2060 head.. and a permenant assistant.
Id rather spend the money on a blackmagic
While the Alexa classic still has that great alexa image.. the canera is just to big and heavy, and it is a battery hog. You would have to get heavy duty legs and at minimum a 2060 head.. and a permenant assistant.
Id rather spend the money on a blackmagic
Blair S. Paulsen
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CASE 1) AlexaXT
Purely from an investment standpoint, a ready to shoot AlexaXT kit for $12K is hard to beat.
Pros:
ARRI's reputation will boost rentals, locally and potentially online.
Learning to operate an Alexa could help you get hired at the professional level when you're ready.
Out of the box image quality should help your work shine.
ARRI makes high spec cameras with high reliability that are respected worldwide
Cons:
Repairs can be expensive when needed
For the use cases noted, it is not the most one man band friendly option by a long shot.
More expensive to insure.
Hard to keep a low profile in public spaces.
Eats batteries at an annoying clip.
TBD:
To recoup some of your cost, rental is likely to be more necessity than bonus. This opens up insurance, damage, contracts, lowballs, etc issues to deal with. It also has the potential to be a nice stream of income. I sincerely wish the OP the best, just know that a one kit rental house can be a minefield.
CASE 2) BMPCC6K
At the other end of the scale, a NIB BMPCC6K for $2,500 would...
Pros:
Leave you plenty of budget to fill out your kit with lots of useful bits. Get a better microphone, better fluid head, etc.
With less initial investment, you wouldn't need a serious rental income stream as badly. My suggestion is "wet" rentals only, meaning that you are a package deal with your camera. Keep the rate low and be cool with being an AC or grip if that's what they need. Great learning opportunity with the bonus of keeping an eye on your kit. In my experience, people typically don't abuse gear right in front of the owner - go figure ;-)
Cons:
BlackMagic cameras have improved, but they still have a bad reputation
Form factor will please some, but career operators may push back
Summary:
Several posters on this thread have passed along valuable notes on the used cameras you suggested, due respect. That said, with so many new models coming out over the next 10 months, the investment value equation for any of them is a bit soft and squishy. Additionally, as a one man band, I'd be very wary of buying a complex piece of electronics like a higher end professional camera that could unexpectedly fail and require expensive repairs to get back in service. The AlexaXT carries that risk in spades, but, fortunately, freshly repaired with a 90 day guarantee, you could likely sell for a good price to get a chunk of it back. With some luck, the same would be true of the other options - but with all the new models coming out, their value is likely to ebb much faster than any Alexa.
Cheers - #19
Purely from an investment standpoint, a ready to shoot AlexaXT kit for $12K is hard to beat.
Pros:
ARRI's reputation will boost rentals, locally and potentially online.
Learning to operate an Alexa could help you get hired at the professional level when you're ready.
Out of the box image quality should help your work shine.
ARRI makes high spec cameras with high reliability that are respected worldwide
Cons:
Repairs can be expensive when needed
For the use cases noted, it is not the most one man band friendly option by a long shot.
More expensive to insure.
Hard to keep a low profile in public spaces.
Eats batteries at an annoying clip.
TBD:
To recoup some of your cost, rental is likely to be more necessity than bonus. This opens up insurance, damage, contracts, lowballs, etc issues to deal with. It also has the potential to be a nice stream of income. I sincerely wish the OP the best, just know that a one kit rental house can be a minefield.
CASE 2) BMPCC6K
At the other end of the scale, a NIB BMPCC6K for $2,500 would...
Pros:
Leave you plenty of budget to fill out your kit with lots of useful bits. Get a better microphone, better fluid head, etc.
With less initial investment, you wouldn't need a serious rental income stream as badly. My suggestion is "wet" rentals only, meaning that you are a package deal with your camera. Keep the rate low and be cool with being an AC or grip if that's what they need. Great learning opportunity with the bonus of keeping an eye on your kit. In my experience, people typically don't abuse gear right in front of the owner - go figure ;-)
Cons:
BlackMagic cameras have improved, but they still have a bad reputation
Form factor will please some, but career operators may push back
Summary:
Several posters on this thread have passed along valuable notes on the used cameras you suggested, due respect. That said, with so many new models coming out over the next 10 months, the investment value equation for any of them is a bit soft and squishy. Additionally, as a one man band, I'd be very wary of buying a complex piece of electronics like a higher end professional camera that could unexpectedly fail and require expensive repairs to get back in service. The AlexaXT carries that risk in spades, but, fortunately, freshly repaired with a 90 day guarantee, you could likely sell for a good price to get a chunk of it back. With some luck, the same would be true of the other options - but with all the new models coming out, their value is likely to ebb much faster than any Alexa.
Cheers - #19
I’ve been working with Tom C. Pickard and Co. / “Fireman’s Fund” Photographic insurance for over 10 years now.
My current agent is Rich Gunn (yeah that’s his real name !)
rich@tcpinsurance.com
Never had a problem, always enjoyed working with them.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'll reach out.
Would be cool for someone to set up a corner of this forum for business-related stuff, but I guess that's a bag of worms.
- Thread starter
- #79
Takor Arrey
Well-known member
Hi Dan, I truly appreciate your commitment to help guide me towards making an informed decision. I really hope others can benefit from this thread and especially from such contributors like yourself. It takes a lot of patience and kindness and wisdom to share knowledge. Thank you.
Here in Toronto it almost seems to be that we pay a bit more for stuff. Few days ago, I negotiated a deal on a Sony F5 for $3742USD ($4228.30USD after tax), with just under 300 hours. The camera comes with the 4K upgrade, PL&EF mount adapters, a view finder 2 used V-mount batteries without the charger and a case.
I figured it will need a base plate, SxS card and charger to be useable. I figured it could cost me another $1000USD to get the needed pieces if I search online.
Reason I considered it was the 4k probability. I also felt that at that price range, it will hold its value a bit longer, but the data cards will be expensive. If I go a different route, I will most likely religiously go the canon route, based on your suggestion.
There's a slightly used C300 MK1 camera withjust over 500hrs on it, along with Canon L series 24-70 f2.8 V2 and Canon L series 70-200 f2.8 V3 IS, selling for $4200USD.
So far these are the better packages I have presented to me.
Here in Toronto it almost seems to be that we pay a bit more for stuff. Few days ago, I negotiated a deal on a Sony F5 for $3742USD ($4228.30USD after tax), with just under 300 hours. The camera comes with the 4K upgrade, PL&EF mount adapters, a view finder 2 used V-mount batteries without the charger and a case.
I figured it will need a base plate, SxS card and charger to be useable. I figured it could cost me another $1000USD to get the needed pieces if I search online.
Reason I considered it was the 4k probability. I also felt that at that price range, it will hold its value a bit longer, but the data cards will be expensive. If I go a different route, I will most likely religiously go the canon route, based on your suggestion.
There's a slightly used C300 MK1 camera withjust over 500hrs on it, along with Canon L series 24-70 f2.8 V2 and Canon L series 70-200 f2.8 V3 IS, selling for $4200USD.
So far these are the better packages I have presented to me.
[/QUOTE]
Those are both good deals.
The pack with the L series lenses, you could flip that C300 to someone else and keep the lenses...
But the F5... yeah man... I’m not 100% sure but pretty sure you can do well recording outboard 4K with an Atomos and have a lower cost quite powerful setup that will still sell for a decent amount when you move on.
The pack with the L series lenses, you could flip that C300 to someone else and keep the lenses...
But the F5... yeah man... I’m not 100% sure but pretty sure you can do well recording outboard 4K with an Atomos and have a lower cost quite powerful setup that will still sell for a decent amount when you move on.