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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

When will we know if Scarlet is upgradeable to Dragon ?

If you really want Dragon, it is my guess that you'll probably spend less in the long run by buying Epic now. I believe it will cost more to start with Scarlet and have to bring your Scarlet to Epic level and then to Dragon. Again, these are my guesses but if you get Epic now you'll be shooting with it right away and you'll probably get upgraded sooner than any Scarlet upgrade path is available; and we are not absolutely sure it will be. If you wait to buy until you find out, you could be sitting for months.
 
You could wait until the dust settles. It should only be weeks (not months) before we get more details about Dragon as it's supposed to roll out this month (presumably with upgrade info for Scarlet owners).

Honestly, I think right now might be the worst time to buy, unless you've got a few jobs lined up whose rental fees would pay for the camera as soon as it arrived. Remember, Dragon between now and the end of the year, then Sony's releasing F5/F55 in Feb, then NAB in April... All of those things have the potential to completely destroy whatever plans you have in the short term (for example, if the F55 is $7500... Or if Dragon upgrade for Scarlet ends up costing $12k but doesn't match Epic level specs... Or Black Magic rolls out an 8k FF35 Camera for $5k at NAB, etc. Not saying those are likely scenarios, but hey, anything is possible and it'd make you really regret a mid/late-november purchase when all of that information is coming so soon.)
 
Just rent an Epic/Scarlet for anything you need now and then see how the cookie crumbles before Xmas.

You know what RED are like with announcements... I predict some Scarlet owners will be unhappy with the upgrade path (as some Epic owners are with the price repositioning).

Overall, it's better to see what happens. It just depends what you're shooting and when... as the Dragon could still be some time off.
 
Andy White said:
... I predict some Scarlet owners will be unhappy with the upgrade path...
Click to expand...

You could be right insofar as, it seems to me, some Scarlet owners are rather optimistic (unrealistic?) about their prospects for Dragon. From the beginning, it has been my understanding/belief that the path from Scarlet to Dragon would be pretty much the equivalent of spending the difference to get an Epic and then upgrading it. Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dragon upgrade for Scarlet costs upwards of $17K (~ $19K - 8K + $6K). That assumes there is only one "level" of Dragon (i.e, no Scarlet Dragon vs. Epic Dragon - which may or may not be the case, but it is what I interpreted the situation to be from the beginning).

Personally, I am keeping my expectations somewhat low. If it costs less than that - or if there is a second level Dragon for Scarlet, I'll be pleasantly surprised. :smiley:
 
Oje Unuigboje said:
I thought the dragon was supposed to take the Epic to 6K and the Scarlet to 5K in which case there should not be so much difference in cost of upgrade for Epic or the Scarlet.
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If you have a source for that info, I'd love to know of it. I may have missed something.
 
Hey Ray, Since in the end you would probably have something that cost as much as an upgraded Epic with Dragon, I agree it might be worth just getting an Epic now. Otherwise you might have something badged Scarlet that you know is really an Epic anyway.

Another good path would be to get a Red One for now. It's basically ready to shoot for $4000 and you can keep it as a B-cam when you make a final decision later. It's not out of the question that the Epic/Scarlet/Dragon combo might actually be $4k less than it is now so you would get a bonus free camera!
 
Confused? How do people believe that their Scarlet can't do or gain quick upgrade to Epic specs or Dragon? All this talk about ACID boards are inferior...I don't buy it.
 
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Harry Stanton said:
Confused? How do people believe that their Scarlet can't do or gain quick upgrade to Epic specs or Dragon? All this talk about ACID boards are inferior...I don't buy it.
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It's not a conspiracy. This isn't Men in Black. The scarlet was built off of chips that didn't meet Epic specs. It happens in manufacturing. I'm thankful they found a way to make use of them.
 
Gary Stone said:
It's not a conspiracy. This isn't Men in Black. The scarlet was built off of chips that didn't meet Epic specs. It happens in manufacturing. I'm thankful they found a way to make use of them.
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Yes, I know that like Intel and AMD motherboards. I think it can handle 5K - 24fps/30. Most people want that so they can use 1.3x crop than 1.6x.
 
My friends at RED told me that Dragon will ONLY be available for the EPIC and then for the SCARLET later. They did not elaborate on any dates but to answer your question, I think either camera is good. The question is what do you need it for, frame rates are the question here. Rental??? I purchased the RED ONE BT. That is still a SUPER AWESOME camera and far better than 90% of whats out there.

Regards
 
I have "feared" Terry could be right. But I don't think he will be.

RED are smart. They know Scarlet users are the RED customers who have money to invest, but not enough to buy an epic, or the majority would. If Scarlet's upgrade prices are to match those of an Epic, or as some have even enjoyed stating, "Scarlet does have an upgrade path, it's called epic" (Which is as equally stupid as saying the 5D has an upgrade path, it's called the C300.) I don't see it working.

RED believes in upgrades and are clearly committed to empowering content makers and changing the landscape, even if it means pissing some people off, including their own customers. So while sure, if you offer Dragon to Scarlet users for 17K you can be a pedant and say it has an upgrade path, but for all intents and purposes, for it's actual user base, it wouldn't function as one.

I also don't think it could be 17K either, as we know RED have said it would cost more than the 6K for epics to convert a Scarlet. So what? At least 20K to upgrade Scarlet? Sure, that'll work... Get your Scarlet Dragon, which is more expensive than buying an Epic, takes longer to get, and is badged as as inferior product in the market place but performs the same as the top of the line one. Doesn't make sense on any real level. NOR DOES, get your Scarlet Dragon, as powerful as an epic, but for less cost! (Settle some of your Scarlet owners!:)) - that's Obvious lunacy.

So the way I see it is either...

1) They install the Dragon with crippled specs for Scarlets for less cost.

2) "IF" I said "IF" it's possible, squeeze more specs out of the existing body for a few thousand more. Middling it between Epic (non dragon) and current Scarlet specs. Meaning we obviously wouldn't be getting better low light or DR, and it wouldn't really be a Dragon upgrade. But would still be an upgrade path.

3) Charge 20K, and have Scarlet (I 'm just like my brother but I'm misunderstood because I'm grey) Dragons.

4) Do all 3.

5) Do 2 of the above.

6) Do none of the above. (But thankfully with RED, I don't really see that as an option)

My own preference? Who doesn't want better DR? That's the holy grail isn't it? So I'd take Option one long term. And gratefully pay for option 2 short term.

Which brings me to the original premise of the thread...

It's a quandary. Which RED are presumably trying to work out, and why I expect we haven't heard anything as yet.
 
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Hey Lliam, I would rather there be a "trade up" option as well to return Scarlets (still under warranty or Red Armor) to an Epic with Dragon. Obviously this would be the most expensive choice but there are folks that now can afford the Epic (since the price change).
 
I think its entertaining to say the least that RED SCARLET owners dont feel good enough to be owners of such a great product! Who cares if someone calls it a baby Epic or a midget?? Its a FANTASTIC camera PERIOD! Your clients, or your own projects will most likely never see the inside of a theatre needing half of what the RED 4K image was designed for anyways. SOME OF US WILL but a lot of projects simply wont go there. BE happy your amongst the ranks of RED OWNERS and wether or not your camera does 4k,5k,6k or 20k who really will ever know once its exported. NOT A PERSON ON THE PLANET can look at 4K and say hey,...this was an EPIC OR SCARLET OR EVEN RED ONE 4.5K!! COME ON PEOPLE!!! BUY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD AND GO MAKE THE BEST DAMN FILM YOU CAN!!!! MUCH RESPECTS TO MY COLLEAGUES
 
Wil Wong said:
Hey Lliam, I would rather there be a "trade up" option as well to return Scarlets (still under warranty or Red Armor) to an Epic with Dragon. Obviously this would be the most expensive choice but there are folks that now can afford the Epic (since the price change).
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Good addition Will. But again not an easy one in terms of price and positioning though I'd hazard. If people are getting even cheaper epics because they owned a scarlet for a few months, I can't see this doing anything but royally pissing off quite a few epic owners. Especially those who bought in post price cuts. I also wouldn't use still under RED warranty as a pre qualifier, or quite a few of the earliest scarlet adopters would be the ones to miss out, which would probably be the least fairest way to gear such an offer.

Dan,

NO. I WANT TO FEEL BAD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE WORST FILMS I CAN MAKE WITH THE WORST 20K MIDGET CAMERA I CAN'T AFFORD AND RELEASE IT ON IMAX FEELING BAD ABOUT BEING AMONGST THE RANKS OF RED OWNERS!

Or, we could discuss RED camera's and their upgrade path on a RED camera forum in a thread about RED camera upgrades.
 
Yeah it would be tricky. I think the price in the end would need to be pretty high if any trade in/up option is given. It might cost more if you add up the money spent on the original Scarlet purchase and the difference for the epic but still cheaper then if you simply just bought a new epic. I believe that the Scarlet owners that wish to upgrade would be willing to pay the extra. To Dan's point, Obviously those that want an epic should have a reason for it. Whether it be using 5k or 6k for print ads/marketing, or for future-proofing.

Either way, I hope Red gives this option. I don't think Epic folks would mind as much knowing that Scarlet upgraders ended up spending more to simply get to their stage.
 
Gary Stone said:
It's not a conspiracy. This isn't Men in Black. The scarlet was built off of chips that didn't meet Epic specs. It happens in manufacturing. I'm thankful they found a way to make use of them.
Click to expand...

I'd imagine they had to run out of there initial batch at some point in time, probably awhile ago. Does that mean they're using ASIC boards that aren't meeting the same quality that is needed for Epic? Or are they just locking them?
 
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