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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What's Your RED Upgrade Strategy?

J

Joel Kaye

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It's a long time before the first Scarlet/EPIC ships. A lot of time to think about this and use you RED.

My first reaction is when Scarlet S35mm ships it will be the best RED camera out there - but it probably will be somewhere around the same cost as a RED similarly configured. But will it be buggy? RED should be pretty smoothed out by then.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do at this point, but RED has priced an almost perfect dilemma for RED owners. Pay $10k more for some extra frame rate and data rate (which I'd be stunned if I ever used) or get a Scarlet for essentially $10k less. The accessory prices are a very big wildcard still.

My current plan: I'll buy Scarlet S35mm and trade in Red on EPIC then sell EPIC brand new in box - probably to a rental house. My low RED number and reception date should give me pretty early access to both EPIC and Scarlet.

I'll probably keep my accessories.

Now I can stop thinking about this and go shoot RED for the next 8 months. I feel for all the people who were worked up over this announcement after they waited for NAB 2008... your wait for Scarlet has really just begun.
 
Work, Save & Beg and then beg some more. To upgrade to Epic from the RED One really will be about 20k. There are some accessories that are absolutely needed. O' canceling my order for 4401 and 4402. No way we can upgrade 3 RED Ones to Epic. Not to mention all the outdated accessories we would have to purchase for the RED Ones.
 
joelnet said:
My current plan: I'll buy Scarlet S35mm and trade in Red on EPIC then sell EPIC brand new in box - probably to a rental house.
Click to expand...

The way I read Jim's announcement was that you can do only 1 of the following:

1. Upgrade Red One sensor
2. Trade in Red One for Epic
3. Get discount on Scarlet

And as soon as you choose one of those options, your camera number will be "locked" on their database.
 
My guess is RED will drop some of these options before they ship. What a phenomenal day for RED, this is truly a day that will go down in digital cinema history... and RED already has a few of those on the shelf. My one problem with the days announcement is there are too many choices and I think it confuses the market. It's hard enough to educate people on one camera, let alone 8. Especially if you are using these cameras as a rental or to sell a service, it will get very muddy with the production managers who are responsible for renting these things.

Choices are great but this is a bit reminiscent of the windows Vista versions. In REDs case, each option is truly different but Id hope to see it consolidated where it can be.

That being said. WOOOOW. Did someone say 3D? :)
 
Emery said:
My guess is RED will drop some of these options before they ship. What a phenomenal day for RED, this is truly a day that will go down in digital cinema history... and RED already has a few of those on the shelf. My one problem with the days announcement is there are too many choices and I think it confuses the market. It's hard enough to educate people on one camera, let alone 8. Especially if you are using these cameras as a rental or to sell a service, it will get very muddy with the production managers who are responsible for renting these things.

Choices are great but this is a bit reminiscent of the windows Vista versions. In REDs case, each option is truly different but Id hope to see it consolidated where it can be.
Click to expand...

I disagree,

The choice of cameras announced today are perfect. They allow people who have invested a great deal of money in glass be that B4, PL, Canon EF, Nikon etc to transition to proper digital high-definition acquisition. And for people to enter the market with who are used to the Z1 camcorder shooting style (Scarlet with 8x lens).

The biggest issue with persuading/educating people is on the full tapeless workflow and working with digital RAW - though that shouldn't be too difficult since most of the industry used to work with chemical RAW (16mm,35mm film) for longer than the WYSIWYG world of video.

All the best on a ground shaking day

JohnF
 
Very Ambitious to say the least!!!

Very Ambitious to say the least!!!

This announcement confirms that we are all in business with some of the most progressive minds in the high end image capture business. As a working Red, DSLR & Digital Medium format shooter, I am very excited with Jim's updated business plan which will be the road map into the next several years if not 6 years considering today's economic situation. Have no doubt that today's situation will impact the speed of which these technologies evolve and come to market.

One thing I will state, if RED holds true to their commitment to innovate with a robust upgrade path to it's loyal consumers holds true... I don't foresee me ever owning another brand of camera.

Cheers to the Red team!!!

Prio
 
That's the question i will like to get answer!

i haven't a Red yet but i still plan to get one if i could exchange it the 17 500 for a scarlet S35 or FF35 wih accessory. If Red is telling me i will be able and give me a written paper , well next month i could spend my cash with confidence!

So Red if your listening, what about this upgrade program? I could think about losing in one year a couple of thousand dollar in my R1, but with my budget and just my need, i can't really think to upgrade to a Epic body. Could you tell us a little more please? i have to take my decision in the next weeks....

Thanks

vincent*
 
There's a good chance that after this announcement nobody continues to design (professional) cameras that are not fully modular. So, there's a good chance this is a historical announcement.

It is obvious the new line of a modular system includes a hole in which Red One perfectly fits. Evidently, this is because Red is a victim of the existing camera and camera owners. Had they start designing the modular line from scratch, I doubt whether there would have been this kind of hole. Saying this let's me think Red may have to reconsider their decision. Perhaps Jim even expects and hopes to get feedback on this very issue.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has had some difficulties in balancing between the obvious technical decisions (i.e. RED would have wanted to include a modular 4K options) and the existing customer base (implying they could not make the obvious 4K option, resp.). With no doubt Jim does not want to make the first "believers" of Red unhappy, so RED is somewhat a victim of its own earlier plans.

But, before or at least when other players come into the market of fully modular systems, Red may have to reconsider what are they going to do with the first 5.000 Red One owners. We'll see, but it's difficult to conceive the 4K solution remain more clumsy than the 3K or 5K options. For, 4K is still very much "the optimal" resolution for indie people.
 
In the 80's and early 90's SD video cameras were modular! Choose your lens, your imaging block and dock the recording unit (from VHS, Hi8 to M2 and BetaSP or even add studio feeds for multcam vision mixer shoots) to the back. The advent of DigiBeta finally changed that with a commitment to the all in one camcorder body.

JohnF
 
JohnF said:
I disagree,

The choice of cameras announced today are perfect. They allow people who have invested a great deal of money in glass be that B4, PL, Canon EF, Nikon etc to transition to proper digital high-definition acquisition. And for people to enter the market with who are used to the Z1 camcorder shooting style (Scarlet with 8x lens).

The biggest issue with persuading/educating people is on the full tapeless workflow and working with digital RAW - though that shouldn't be too difficult since most of the industry used to work with chemical RAW (16mm,35mm film) for longer than the WYSIWYG world of video.

All the best on a ground shaking day

JohnF
Click to expand...


I think choice is great, but too much choice is bad. If you actually look at the product lineup, it would be hard to drop any of them but I would venture to say at least 2 of those brains should be dropped. That would require RED to make some changes to their specs and give a lil more overlap between products. I guess Im more of a Jobsian thinker when it comes to choice, that is, the fewest possible.
 
Dare I say it...the modular camera is very cool and very 2008, but is a temporary solution until the cameras are nearly disposable. When you can shoot 10K+ resolution on a thousdand dollar camera (Moore's Law, hello) , will you care whether it's modular or not? Or will it just go into a bottom drawer with your old DVD player and Walkman. It will reach a point where it's much cheaper to buy a new camera than to upgrade. In the meantime, we live in 2009 when this latest line-up of cameras is going to come out. And they look really promising.

As for our plans...I'm taking a much more wait-and-see approach for now. I think I learned something from the first frenzy to reserve a camera. I'm very excited by these new options, because they're getting closer and closer to the camera I really want (lightweight, portable, cheap 35mm digital cinema cameras).

So in short, our plan may simply be just keep shooting with Red One through 2009 and not think about it so much...yet.
 
My upgrade strategy if shipping dates hold:

Currently Own (1x RED ONE)

Spring/Summer 2009 - Purchase 5K Scarlet and all necessary accessories
Summer/Fall 2009 - Trade in REDONE for EPIC 5K and purchase and extra set of accessories
Spring 2010 - Purchase EPIC 9k
Spring 2010 - Purchase EPIC 28k

You see!!! This is why choice is bad! I have to get nearly all of them! :help:
 
Emery said:
Jobsian thinker when it comes to choice, that is, the fewest possible.
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one. The lineup is too A.D.D. Someone at RED needs to have enough balls to say slow down, let's present a focused marketing message.

A friend of mine worked for a company that sold a modular software product that was superior to a competitor's but the competitor was killing them. Why? The competitor had one product that did all the key things - end of story. It was a much easier purchasing decision.

RED would be better off promoting 2 or 3 core product kits and just sticking everything else in the store. Especially in the Scarlet line. Let the 20% hardcore customers dig for the 80% of options.

I don't really know the exact solution... it's just too much to process and guys like us have owned RED's for quite a while now and followed everything since the start.
 
viny, as Jim stated in his posting, you can only get a 12% discount on Scarlet with your RED. And this kills all your other options of using your RED credit.


A RED ONE owner has several choices.

1. A RED ONE owner can keep the RED ONE and upgrade to the Mysterium-X sensor for a TBD price... just as we promised.

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

3. A RED ONE owner can choose to keep their RED ONE and receive a one-time credit of 12% on a Scarlet system purchase.

Once any of the above has been chosen, the serial number will be marked as "Executed". It can not be used again for #2 or #3. It can, however, always be eligible for another sensor upgrade as we release new sensor technology in the future.
Click to expand...
 
Forgive me if I misunderstand peoples positions here but with film cameras do you not have the ability to alter/change viewfinders, gates, mags, film stock control systems etc etc.

Most film cameras are and always have been modular in some way or another.

With the digital imaging age comes modularity like those proposed today since it does the following:

1. Maximises the number of users. (catering to the needs of ENG/EFP/motion picture - film and TV markets and, dare I say it, internet broadcasting)

2. Provides the ability for full artistic control over ones images.

3. Avoids the issue of being lumped with an expensive system that doesn't cover what one needs it to do and needing to buy another (very) expensive system to compensate.

4. Continues the modularity we are used to with 35mm cameras (which is so useful)

JohnF
 
Xax said:
viny, as Jim stated in his posting, you can only get a 12% discount on Scarlet with your RED. And this kills all your other options of using your RED credit.
Click to expand...

Buy Scarlet at full price and trade in RED for EPIC. 12% off Scarlet is like $850 or something.
 
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