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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Whats the reason RED is taking all the old R1 back in

Well duh people. Jim is obviously building a giant new headquarters out of recycled RED One sensors and bodies - that, or a space bazooka :-)
 
jake blackstone said:
Wouldn't it be funny, like, haha funny, if Red pulled the "resolve" move and gave those cameras away for free?:001_tt2:
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They would never burn their customers like that. Not in their DNA. Donations to film schools are not the same thing.
 
conrad gaunt said:
Without knowing how much a R1 costs to manufacture, we'll never know how good a deal it was though will we?

The R1 soaked up most of the pain, which, hopefully, Epic will benefit from. Now that we have Epic brain "sensor upgrades", the Epic is at last "as upgradeable" as the original R1 was.. got there in the end..

I think my stage 3 "upgrade" deal is about as much as I want to pay actually, when combined with the original R1 purchase, for a box, sensor and some microchips and an encoding board (codec unknown <coujgh2k>) x2 (of which I keep 1).

I just wish it didn't come with yesteryears sensor.. monstro must be about three years old now? Didn't really want an mx..

Do I think Red make money on all Epic packages they ship, including stage 2 and 3? of course you do..

I don't think anyone here is ill-informed, more like "not informed at all".

ASIC, once designed, are pretty cheap to manufacture, right? As are microchips? Boards? Camera Bodies? Research and Development using beta testers (i mean redusers)?

And yet, Epic+Scarlet= Expensive!

..of course, licensing a codec might be expensive, I don't know..

Most companies do their research and development without selling the product first..

So without needing any conspiracy, just knowing what I paid, and what I got, and not even factoring in what other companies might or might not be doing/offering, whom I've bought nothing from anyway ie, Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Arri, Silicon Imaging etc etc .. I'd say Epic and Scarlet are WAY over priced IMIIO...

I've reconstructed this sentence:
Revolution or Marketing? I'll go with mostly marketing

to this:

Revolution or Marketing? I'll go with mostly marketing (i know we all know it David)..but in the interests of having balanced discussions that reflect different opinions, and for my own motives, I'd like to share my current thinking in the form of a reply to something someone from red said, if thats ok with everyone, which is what this entire post is. sorry if its of no interest, thats out of my control frankly
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If I read you post to someone having bought an f900 or an F35, they would laugh.
 
After putting R1s for sale as a battle tested in the RED Store I will still donate some quantities of R1s at MSR Price to the film schools and get tax write offs.

Nothing better than planting the seeds in the schools.

It may benefit other guys as well but if you learn on the RED you will recommend RED once you become a decision maker at work.

IBM was doing it extensively and looks like they are still going strong:
Range 180.00 - 183.96
52 week 141.28 - 190.53
Open 183.37
Vol / Avg. 5.15M/5.70M
Mkt cap 213.90B
P/E 14.36
Div/yield 0.75/1.65
EPS 12.64
Shares 1.18B
Beta 0.66
Inst. own 62%
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
small q left conrad, since it really interests me.
what is in your opinion the right price, and most importantly, why?
i mean, how do u get to that number x?
and i would appreciate if you talk about your thoughts re pl glass and how the demand can be handled while maintaining the quality and lowering the price at the same time.
thanks.
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The right price is irrelevant, because whatever price Red set, as long as they beat the competition everyone will go woop! and I understand that opinion

What is known as the equilibrium price might be best, a price that maximizes demand, and Im not sure a working Scarlet falls into that price catagory (what do I know eh, I could be completely wrong)

Then again, I thought the R1 was over priced but bought one..but at least it delivered a decent codec. This was driven of course by my re-emerging interest in documentary... A working Scarlet costs approx. the same as a R1 body

I don't feel I have to justify why I think what I think, its a complex calculation I made by myself. The Red one contains components, the Scarlet ASICs

I've never bought an mpeg, or dv based HD camera. I've never bought a HD camera. I worked in SD for years. HD was crap, mainly due to codec. And btw, I prefer motion-jpeg over mpeg and DV anyday

None of those cameras affect my buying decisions or opinions.. why would they?

About twelve years ago I stopped buying cameras and pursued other interests in frustration at nothing being available other than film that looked decent

The first camera that did interest me again was the Silicon Imaging beast, but it was over priced for what it did

Storage speed/space seems to have been the main bottleneck to colour depth and image integrity, but I'm not sure why for most of those 12years.. the technology was there, but big companies like incremental change

There is plenty of quality glass out there too, some in PL mount, some not

Now that everyone uses the same digital film stocks (ie mx, 5D etc), you might find people seek out different lens options to differentiate their work. Plenty of BNCR, Arri Standard, oct-18, oct-19, Bayonet, Nikon, Canon.. all can be stuck on most cameras

For what its worth, I think the next camera I buy after Epic, will have a global shutter..
 
conrad gaunt said:
The right price is irrelevant, because whatever price Red set, as long as they beat the competition everyone will go woop! and I understand that opinion
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I'm a little confused - I understood all your points, accept this. You've said that they're overpriced, but won't say what is the fair price?
Surely there's a point where it went from being correctly-priced to over-priced in your mind?
I thought that there was a % mark-up based on the cost of manufacture, developent etc - you feel that such a mark up is to high? I guess Jim will have to chime in here and tell us the 'bottom-line' cost of making an Epic and Scarlet and then we can decide whats fair.
For that matter I need to have a word with Adobe- given that theres a download option for their software, maybe I should pay per-line-of code minus packaging and delivery.

My point is this. The way you get to tell a company that something is too expensive is by not buying it, or alternativly present yourself in front of them and haggle your ass off - anything else seems somewhat futile.

If you're happy with the price then you get to put the deposit down and wait for your Epic/Scalet (for what its worth, I ordered a Scarlet because I couldn't afford the Epic - that's not to say that I don't feel the Epic is the right price - I think compared to the alternatives Epic is a steal!)
 
conrad gaunt said:
The right price is irrelevant, because whatever price Red set, as long as they beat the competition everyone will go woop! and I understand that opinion
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After seeing your rental rates Conrad, I'd have to say your actions are consistent with your opinions. I respect that even though I disagree with your thinking (and rates).

Best,
lael
 
Gary Paul Walker said:
I'm a little confused - I understood all your points, accept this. You've said that they're overpriced, but won't say what is the fair price?
Surely there's a point where it went from being correctly-priced to over-priced in your mind?
I thought that there was a % mark-up based on the cost of manufacture, developent etc - you feel that such a mark up is to high? I guess Jim will have to chime in here and tell us the 'bottom-line' cost of making an Epic and Scarlet and then we can decide whats fair.
For that matter I need to have a word with Adobe- given that theres a download option for their software, maybe I should pay per-line-of code minus packaging and delivery.

My point is this. The way you get to tell a company that something is too expensive is by not buying it, or alternativly present yourself in front of them and haggle your ass off - anything else seems somewhat futile.

If you're happy with the price then you get to put the deposit down and wait for your Epic/Scalet (for what its worth, I ordered a Scarlet because I couldn't afford the Epic - that's not to say that I don't feel the Epic is the right price - I think compared to the alternatives Epic is a steal!)
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I don't have the variables to calculate a fair price, but I can take an educated guess about how much it costs to actually knock together a scarlet.. but I would still be missing other variables, which I could also guess at... the point is, im stage 3. if i wasn't, I'd be stage 9

You see we differ. I don't think about alternatives to Epic, there are none. Epic is the least over priced. I think about the price of Epic in relation to its probable cost to bring to market and its long term durability, and running costs .. I remember watching the red paint fall off my 300 prime weeks after receiving it.. the r1 had rusty bolts visible from the get go.. nothing made me think "quality", only the image had that

Some of us were renting out cameras that could be @very embarrassing@ for years. Before that we paid a deposit and waited more years. Now years later, we are offered stage 2 and 3. I don't think it a world record for generosity, I think it is fair. I respect Jim for that

I also hear people telling me their Red this or that paid for itself in three months rental etc etc ... of course it did, the traditional day rate for renting lights is 10% of their value .. its bonkers, even the most predatory and greedy bankers in the world don't expect returns like that.. but thats what filmmakers are told to pay, and they do :banghead:
 
Wow, Conrad ... just wow. I now understand why Jim and Jarred get discouraged despite bending over backwards to be fair and generous to customers. I'm not pro-censorship, however, I almost wish mods would delete your posts and close this thread just for that reason alone -- so J and J don't assume you represent a meaningful portion of customers.

The facts are plain to see:

- Red builds a camera with the most advanced specs in the industry (look at Red One at it's release, or Epic, or upcoming cameras) - check!
- Old technology? Hmmm ... 1st to offer widespread 4k, first to offer DMSC, first with hi-res/high-framerates, first first first etc - check!
- Red charges a mère fraction of what others would or do charge (less than half the price of Alexa, or 90% less in the case of the Sony F35) - check!
- Red is literally the ONLY companies to offer upgrades, and not only that -- they "upgrade" 100% OF THE ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE - check!!!

And the list goes on ... I can't seriously believe you're complaining???

Dude, I understand there's free speech but posts and attitudes like yours really make this forum a bummer sometimes :(
 
Hi conrad, i studied mathematics, so i am probably able to follow your complicated calculations.

sidenote: conrad, it can possibly happen that red refuses to service your stage 3. Since the epic is anyhow overpriced in your opinion it wouldnt make any difference for you, i guess.
but possibly i am wrong on both of this, who knows, future will tell. i dont wish you that it happens, even i could understand red's action.

there is an old saying: dont piss into the garden where you get your food from. :)
 
It doesn't matter what the hardware costs if it does the job you need. The redcode workflow alone makes any camera by red a bargain to me. I can post 4k raw footage real time on a Mac pro from 2007.
 
Also Conrad, you should know that you're not really allowed to have "Red" in the title of your url (as it pertains to Red cameras in anyway).

Jim and Jarred have commented about this and the issue is that they cannot have customers potentially confusing non-official red urls with official ones. It was my understanding that they have legal grounds to get sites taken down that violate this.

Granted, while they may have let some slide in certain cases, I doubt they will be doing that with you given your comments. So prepare to change url's soon as well .....
 
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