Whats the reason RED is taking all the old R1 back in

[MikeHedge]

any stage 3 people with the SSD side module, should find RED ONE owners that don't yet have the SSD module, and pass it along before turning in the stage 3 RED ONE

 

[Steve Sherrick]

any stage 3 people with the SSD side module, should find RED ONE owners that don't yet have the SSD module, and pass it along before turning in the stage 3 RED ONE

If anyone is looking to sell an SSD module for a heavily discounted rate, I know someone who would like one.

 

[Thomas Pohl]

After I read that RED checks all the returning R1's to reduce the trade in if the camera has the a defect, I'm sure that the returned cameras won't become mouldty in their storage racks. Nevertheless the trade in is a non-comparable and unique offer in the histiory of camera selling.

Cheers
Thomas.

 

[LCamak]

Red's philosophy is the right way to do business. Just because NO ONE else does it, doesn't mean you shouldn't. Someone has got to lead the way and set the standard.
I'm so glad I got to witness this from early on. It has sure taught me some valuable lessons in running a business.

On a side note, while I DO see the value in helping out film schools, I shy away from outright gifts. Experience tells me that people value things more when they pay for something they want. I'm cool with academic rates like Adobe offers, but giving it away somehow lowers respect. This principle always confused me, but it's true.

I hope these babies come back Battle tested, upgraded, and in-your-face RED. MonstroOne anyone?

Red Rocks.

lael

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Red's philosophy is the right way to do business. Just because NO ONE else does it, doesn't mean you shouldn't. Someone has got to lead the way and set the standard.
I'm so glad I got to witness this from early on. It has sure taught me some valuable lessons in running a business.

On a side note, while I DO see the value in helping out film schools, I shy away from outright gifts. Experience tells me that people value things more when they pay for something they want. I'm cool with academic rates like Adobe offers, but giving it away somehow lowers respect. This principle always confused me, but it's true.

I hope these babies come back Battle tested, upgraded, and in-your-face RED. MonstroOne anyone?

Red Rocks.

lael

I remember Jim saying they would not donate them to film schools. Unless that's changed, we can probably rule that one out.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I second Steve's thought: I'd love to buy an SSD for the RED One. . . if the price is right.

Stephen

 

[conrad gaunt]

Yes, although the ill-informed may question the reason behind such an unprecedented financial deal, it really is that simple.

Without knowing how much a R1 costs to manufacture, we'll never know how good a deal it was though will we?

The R1 soaked up most of the pain, which, hopefully, Epic will benefit from. Now that we have Epic brain "sensor upgrades", the Epic is at last "as upgradeable" as the original R1 was.. got there in the end..

I think my stage 3 "upgrade" deal is about as much as I want to pay actually, when combined with the original R1 purchase, for a box, sensor and some microchips and an encoding board (codec unknown <coujgh2k>) x2 (of which I keep 1).

I just wish it didn't come with yesteryears sensor.. monstro must be about three years old now? Didn't really want an mx..

Do I think Red make money on all Epic packages they ship, including stage 2 and 3? of course you do..

I don't think anyone here is ill-informed, more like "not informed at all".

ASIC, once designed, are pretty cheap to manufacture, right? As are microchips? Boards? Camera Bodies? Research and Development using beta testers (i mean redusers)?

And yet, Epic+Scarlet= Expensive!

..of course, licensing a codec might be expensive, I don't know..

Most companies do their research and development without selling the product first..

So without needing any conspiracy, just knowing what I paid, and what I got, and not even factoring in what other companies might or might not be doing/offering, whom I've bought nothing from anyway ie, Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Arri, Silicon Imaging etc etc .. I'd say Epic and Scarlet are WAY over priced IMIIO...

I've reconstructed this sentence:
Revolution or Marketing? I'll go with mostly marketing

to this:

Revolution or Marketing? I'll go with mostly marketing (i know we all know it David)..but in the interests of having balanced discussions that reflect different opinions, and for my own motives, I'd like to share my current thinking in the form of a reply to something someone from red said, if thats ok with everyone, which is what this entire post is. sorry if its of no interest, thats out of my control frankly

 

[David Battistella]

Conrad.

You seem smart.

Probably smart enough that you could build the camera yourself.

Of course. It didn't take people, know how, man power, testing, engineering, a place of business or any of that stuff. That stuff shouldn't cost money right? Just get some slaves in a third world country to build it all so I can have it for nothing.

Of course.

RED just slapped a few cheap boards in a box, put a PL mount on it, wrote a few lines of code and spit out a 4K camera.

We are all a bunch of idiots. I get it.
Great post!

David

 

[conrad gaunt]

Did the bad man say something negative about RED products?

Conrad.

You seem smart.

I don't know how I seem, but thanks

smart enough that you could build the camera yourself.

i didn't say that.. hey, are you flirting with me David?

course. It didn't take people, know how, man power, testing, engineering or any of that stuff. That stuff should cost money right?

I think my post said "without knowing what the R1 cost to bring to market".. probably includes all those things, yes..

course.

RED just slapped a few cheap boards in a box and spit out a 4K camera.

did they? ..were there just fifteen of them doing it in a shed?

we are all a bunch of idiots.

Is that a question, or an opinion? Or do you think I'm implying that? Are you insecure?

I get it.

I'm not sure you do. You're probably someone who has no issue with Epic or Scarlet prices, am I right?

post!

Thanks, yours was a little patronising if I'm honest ( I know were not really meant to be )

And no, I couldn't build a camera.. I'd have a bash at a codec though .. what about you?

I just don't like to be spoon fed disingenuous rubbish. Red is about making cameras, and money.. and marketing by the truck load, and i think sometimes they believe their own hype frankly.. yes they care about their product, but they need a bigger market share fast IMO

Yes, I'd say the camera market was wide open to an assault by someone like Red, but were still being sold old technology as cutting edge, with the line "and that costs".. Yes it does, just not that much IMO

Right now, Canon just have to make a DSLR with jpeg2000 raw recording and sell it at the right price. They won't of course, they'll mess one or other of the parameters up

Could I charge 50% more for my Red rental package if I wanted? ..even though that would probably still beat any "like for like" deal, anywhere? ..the answer is yes, and the reason I don't is complex. But the short version is, I don't like milking people


Hey, why don't you start a "Who would be willing to pay more for their Scarlet if they could" poll

 

[conrad gaunt]

any stage 3 people with the SSD side module, should find RED ONE owners that don't yet have the SSD module, and pass it along before turning in the stage 3 RED ONE

that, is a very good idea sir! You know, your only an "s" away from being one of the best(ist) guitarists ever..

 

[David Battistella]

Conrad,

You are totaly entitled to your opinion and your world view.

I just think that people forget that there are real costs associated with everything. I'm not a code engineer or a software developer. I am a filmmaker. A few years ago RED put out a great product at a compettive and fair price, then they gave me a 100% trade in value on a three year old product. That made me pretty happy. I was a bit surprised actually.

So, forgive me for being pleased that RED did a nice thing for some of their early customers.

I just like to think the world is a good place full of positive things if you know where and how to look.

Cheers.!

David

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

conrad, a alexa plus costs 100 000 dollars.
a F65 the same.
epic M costs 58 k
epic X 19500 dollars in stage 2
scarlet x is 10k+
F3 is 15k
can you explain me, how a camera with the best specs and best price in their category can be overpriced?
honestly, we are talking here about low volume items.
no company will sell millions of PL Mount cameras for different reasons.
one is the needed glass for example.
what do you think how many master prime sets are out there? or cooke s4 sets.
now you can argue that you dont need PL glass, use canon glass etc.
Tell that an AC who pulls focus at T2 on a 75mm lens.
he will need the top notch mechanics.
back to the camera.

red has only 400 employes, all of them working in the US,
maybe parts are bought from somewhere in Asia, but building the cams in the US and paying the employees accordingly is important.
red can deliver a camera for a pricepoing the competitors cant. and outspec the competitors at the same time.
my english is bad, so i hope i could express myself so you can understand.
if you wanna know what is overpriced, buy a arri mattebox with flags, masks etc.

 

[conrad gaunt]

Conrad,

You are totaly entitled to your opinion and your world view.

I just think that people forget that there are real costs associated with everything. I'm not a code engineer or a software developer. I am a filmmaker. A few years ago RED put out a great product at a compettive and fair price, then they gave me a 100% trade in value on a three year old product. That made me pretty happy. I was a bit surprised actually.

So, forgive me for being pleased that RED did a nice thing for some of their early customers.

I just like to think the world is a good place full of positive things if you know where and how to look.

Cheers.!

David

I'm in the same boat as you, but I wasn't surprised at the upgrade deal, I immediately thought "clever Red".. but I object to being told what is or isn't a good deal (I don't mean by you), by anybody.. including Red

Red products/deals may be good, maybe great, but most people are making these judgments it seems to me, relative to a lot of very badly priced, under spec'd products IMO

I would have liked to have seem Red make their announcement before Canon frankly. I'm sure Canon' announcement didn't affect Scarlet pricing.. then again, they printed nothing beforehand so maybe it did.. Canon left a massive gap with their pricing, and specs.

I admit, when Red released the DSMC original Epic specs, while others were rejoicing, I was thinking "sensor upgrades" just got 6x more expensive.. and I posted that immediately in Jim' DSMC thread (pretty early as I remember).. was I being negative? I'd say, practical.

If the answer is "yes" to that question, then never upgrade your Epic to a dragon (as if) ..because it wasn't on the cards once-upon-a-time in happyland, not something we need ..the fact they seem to have listened is a reason to be positive, yes

Just trying to be a counter-weight David, thats all. I am loyal to Red, but as other options arrive, they are gunna need to keep earning that loyalty, because when all is said and done, buying cameras is a business decision, not just an artistic one..

There were sayings long ago like "consumer is king" and "the customer is always right".. nowadays he's just a friend you can hang with.. long live the king, the king is dead (or barely alive on a never ending pay-as-you-go scheme)

Will prices drop again as things return to "business as normal" in Japan, or does it only work one way.. because money is becoming a scarce commodity for some people at the moment, and it will be getting worse, even if you put on full intensity rose tinted spectacles. I also admit, I like to put on those spectacles, normally before I make my Red purchase

 

[LCamak]

I just like to think the world is a good place full of positive things if you know where and how to look.

There's an excellent book by Seth Godin called Linchpin: Are you Indispensible?. Seth describes that in our current mass production assembly-line world, the ones that succeed are the ones that learn how to be indispensible. David, the positive you describe is heralded in this book. There's too much in the book for me to summarize it, but I highly reccomend it.

Red is indispensible.

Cuneyt, you put it in perspective very well. Your english is awesome.... heck of a lot better than my German.

lael

 

[conrad gaunt]

conrad, a alexa plus costs 100 000 dollars.
a F65 the same.
epic M costs 58 k
epic X 19500 dollars in stage 2
scarlet x is 10k+
F3 is 15k
can you explain me, how a camera with the best specs and best price in their category can be overpriced?
honestly, we are talking here about low volume items.
no company will sell millions of PL Mount cameras for different reasons.
one is the needed glass for example.
what do you think how many master prime sets are out there? or cooke s4 sets.
now you can argue that you dont need PL glass, use canon glass etc.
Tell that an AC who pulls focus at T2 on a 75mm lens.
he will need the top notch mechanics.
back to the camera.

red has only 400 employes, all of them working in the US,
maybe parts are bought from somewhere in Asia, but building the cams in the US and paying the employees accordingly is important.
red can deliver a camera for a pricepoing the competitors cant. and outspec the competitors at the same time.
my english is bad, so i hope i could express myself so you can understand.
if you wanna know what is overpriced, buy a arri mattebox with flags, masks etc.

All valid points, but the short answer is, they are ALL over priced IMO, some more than others. Comparing an over-priced orange, with an even more over-priced orange, doesn't make either of the oranges good value . I don't believe there is a shortage of glass either, in one mount or another

If Red get their price right, and we'll see if they have, they;ll get the volumes, and hopefully, the price will become even more right over time. fingers crossed

My thoughts on Scarlet is, its prohibitively expensive at the moment, and lacking slowmotion for music promo production.. its in my interests that it is actually,,

Your English seems good btw

I wouldn't buy an ARRI mattebox, the Redrock is much the same (im told)

- Maybe the cameras are getting taken back because the second hand r1 market will undermine the new Scarlet one? I know I'd have a tough job deciding. Or I could wait until dragon scarlet comes out and maybe save some of the upgrade cost..
- Maybe the mx sensors will get recycled?
- Don't they all contain Red rocket cards?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

ok thats your opinion re cameras.
with lenses, the cooke for example are hand assembled and have a heavy QC,
if you order today, you get a set in Q3/2012.
so demand is there, but they cant deliver, even at 20 k per lens.
maybe in 5-7 years there will be cams with similar specs as scarlet for 5k. but today its the deal.

i did own both the redrock and the arri MB, and frankly the redrock was inferior, parts were getting loose,
quality was low, it has a plastic feeling, so i sold it again. but
i dont know why redrock is building it with such a low quality. the overpriced arri MB is built like a tank and just works in every condition.

btw of course i am happy that i dont need to buy a new brain every 18-24 months when a new sensor is released.its only the sensor upgrade now asfaik.

and in reds price is also the superb support, think of redcine x pro, its free for all, paid through the cameras.
and all the little favors they do. honestly i never had such a support from a different company.
(getting things repaired emergency etc., getting alpha builds per mail on a sunday, answering mails at midnight)

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

small q left conrad, since it really interests me.
what is in your opinion the right price, and most importantly, why?
i mean, how do u get to that number x?
and i would appreciate if you talk about your thoughts re pl glass and how the demand can be handled while maintaining the quality and lowering the price at the same time.
thanks.

 

[Detlev Eller]

Thread: Whats the reason RED is taking all the old R1 back in

People have a hard time with kindness.

They sometimes refuse to believe people can be good and kind.

It seems that, at the core, that is what RED folks are. But you know what? People like to fight that instead of just believing that it's true.

Human nature can be quite strange.

These kinds of things keep my faith in humans very high.


David

yep.

the true barrier to market entry ... for genuine inventors.

the second wave is usually steeling ... and other naughty stuff.

sad world.


I am holding back - my own technology for years now, ...
it takes an enormous amount of money to get the protection in place, before hand.

And another handful, to break through the "clouded" mind and give people better tools ...

makes me sick and sad.


Anyhow, glad RED is made out of RED and we have ONEs, EPICs and SCARLETs ...
... which is what matters, i guess ...

)

 

[Detlev Eller]

Without knowing how much a R1 costs to manufacture, we'll never know how good a deal it was though will we?
...

... this is a fun question, although completely irrelevant .... lol .... here are alternatives .... (to the evil seed of doubt)

1. .... is there any other deal or has been?
2. .... is it in any dimension or on any scale relevant to know how much of a deal this is for RED and its backers ... ?

It´s a hell of a deal anytime it serves the purpose (!)

... i hope it is a giant business for the creators and manufacturers - seriously ... ;-)

simply put:
superbly generous. superbly smart. superbly human.

 

[Don Whitley]

Well they may just be taking all the R1's back in to release the new R6 with 6k and a dragon sensor, its cheaper for them to use all those R1 bodies instead of rebuilding something new from scratch, bigger body bigger chip more room to play with.