What’s next from RED now that Komodo is out?

[Zack Birlew]

Hey, everybody, so the RED Komodo is shipping and it looks like a competent camera so now the question turns to DSMC3 or whatever is coming next from RED. There’s a good deal of enticing 6K and 8K options from the competition and Blackmagic dropped the 12K into the ring and all of these are either S35 or FF with the Sony A7S III and Panasonic S1H killing it on the mirrorless side of things. At this point what are people expecting from RED next and what do we already know?

In my opinion, whatever it is, RED needs to stick to having a mirrorless mount and they need to be 8K resolution minimum and those body prices have got to come down unless they toss out a 20K+ beast for the high end. Also, if they’re still going to do RED Media, might I suggest an encapsulated dual M.2 RAID 1+0 setup for speed, safety, and easy repair if one of the sticks goes bad?

 

[Sergio Perez]

Jarred already said many things have been learnt with Komodo that will go to a DSMC3.
Personally I would love a modular concept like the dsmc2 with a small form factor that we can build up as we please. I know many love the rangers and I hope both approaches continue to coexist.

Having said that, I expect the next camera to be full frame, which Seems to be the preferred format from Jarred also.
I’m hoping for a body where I can upgrade my Monstro sensor to, with more horsepower, less compression, ND In body (or lens Mount), IS in body (that would be a development I would love to see!), Komodo level autofocus functions, 4K monitoring. That’s what I wish to upgrade to, but I’m sure a higher end model will appear, maybe introducing a 8K + global shutter sensor, Blackmagic matching frame rates at top resolution, mirror less and with better autofocus.

Waiting of hearing about this by summer next year. There is no rush since the current lineup is more than current for today’s production world and most workflows are well adapted to dsmc2s.

 

[Luka Sanader]

Ranger and Komodo form factors turned to be way better then DSMC2 concept. For Red sake i hope that they drop DSMC accessories and modular concept that they have since original Epic.

 

[Brian Roberts]

Now that Komodo's out, what's next is a plunge in value for my Dragon, clearly.

Luka, I agree 100% about the accessories. When so many cine cams out there come with monitors, side handles, lens mounts etc. included it's a hard pill to swallow spending thousands of dollars more just to get your RED camera running.

 

[Andrew Reese]

Interesting how opinions differ so greatly.... Global shutter for many obvious reasons should become the future for DSCM3 but hopefully not at the sake of reduced DR or low-light sensitivity. Komodo's IQ compared to DSCM2 is "good but not as good" and its definitely no Gemini or Monstro in terms of IQ. If a FF 8K or 12K version of a Komodo sensor did persist it would still need to improve its overall IQ to give similar DR and low-light performance comparable to its bigger brothers. Increased resolution and sensor size are meaningless marketing terms if DR, low-light performance, high-light roll-off and ability to handle under-exposure and over-exposure, etc. are not as good or better than Gemini and Monstro going forward.

The form factor of DSMC2 for me is not as much a bother as is its weight. I actually find Komodo too small at times for adding on accessories and it begins to feel like a frankenrig but the reduced weight of Komodo has been a great benefit over DSMC2. I definitely appreciate the smaller form factor and reduced weight of Komodo and hope RED can cut some fat off of DSCM3 but at the same time I am not a fan of non-swappable and non-locking lens mounts (DSMC titanium/magnesium mounts are awesome), extra cables, aftermarket battery plates on rails, and monitors that do not direct mount to the camera body using the pogos. I understand Komodo was supposed to allow the lower-tier market to utilize accessories and components that are more standard and that they already have sitting around, but I do think RED made a mistake that Komodo by not allowing integration with direct mount DSCM style monitors as the 4.7" would have been so perfect for a Komodo and left existing DSCM users out to buy aftermarket monitoring that they may have not really needed or wanted (I had to buy an Atomos Shinobi). I hope that the modularity of DSCM remains in the future with DSCM3 and hopefully we will see some newly developed proprietary technology along with a more symbiotic relationship with aftermarket accessories.

My DSMC3 Dream List:

1) Mix between Komodo & Mavo Edge Form Factor
2) 8K-12K FF Global Shutter Sensor with large PhotoSites and Dual-ISO or DGO
3) Frame Rates better or equal to DSCM2 - I would like to see 8k/100fps, 6k/200fps, 4K/400fps and 2k/800fps so RED could start being used instead of FreeFly Wave or lower end Phantoms
3) Direct mount RED monitors with better brightness - New Ultra Bright 5"
4) Swappable Canon BP series, gold-mount & v-mount battery plates that mount directly into the back of the camera
5) IO expander ports built directly into the camera (i.e. Timecode, ctrl, sync, sdi, hdmi, lemo, mini-xlr) - Take a look at the Kinefinity Mavo Edge Form Factor
6) Wireless Monitoring with RED Control APP with low-latency out to 500-1000' - Accurate and reliable enough to replace dedicated wireless setups
7) Wireless timecode built into camera - Camera can connect to a tentacle sync or mixer with TC wirelessly.
8) Better internal audio pre-amps - Let's see a collaboration with Sound Devices or SonoSax
8) Internal ND's only if produces no color-cast - I am still fine with old fashioned 4x5.65 ND's but thats just me

 

[Christoffer Glans]

My DSMC3 Dream List:

1) Mix between Komodo & Mavo Edge Form Factor
2) 8K-12K FF Global Shutter Sensor with large PhotoSites and Dual-ISO or DGO
3) Frame Rates better or equal to DSCM2 - I would like to see 8k/100fps, 6k/200fps, 4K/400fps and 2k/800fps so RED could start being used instead of FreeFly Wave or lower end Phantoms
3) Direct mount RED monitors with better brightness - New Ultra Bright 5"
4) Swappable Canon BP series, gold-mount & v-mount battery plates that mount directly into the back of the camera
5) IO expander ports built directly into the camera (i.e. Timecode, ctrl, sync, sdi, hdmi, lemo, mini-xlr) - Take a look at the Kinefinity Mavo Edge Form Factor
6) Wireless Monitoring with RED Control APP with low-latency out to 500-1000' - Accurate and reliable enough to replace dedicated wireless setups
7) Wireless timecode built into camera - Camera can connect to a tentacle sync or mixer with TC wirelessly.
8) Better internal audio pre-amps - Let's see a collaboration with Sound Devices or SonoSax
8) Internal ND's only if produces no color-cast - I am still fine with old fashioned 4x5.65 ND's but thats just me

1. Needs low power exceptional heat transfer.
2. The size of photosites is in relation between sensor size and resolution. The size of the photosites will be equal to Monstro if you have an FF 8K camera, at 12K they get smaller. A global FF sensor might also decrease FPS.
3. Global shutter and more FPS? Phantom has a global shutter and high fps and it costs... a lot.
3 (nr 2) On BP batteries power draw?
4. So, all of the above, but with BP batteries? That would mean a revolution in processing power and sensor draw plus extreme heat reduction innovation. Not to mention power a super bright (2000 nits?) monitor as well.
5. That would mean going back to something closer to DSMC2 form factor size.
6. Then skip wireless and go with better transmitters. Also gonna take up space.
7. This I'm behind, I don't get why this isn't a standard thing, seriously Red.
8. Audio is pretty much irrelevant on cinema cameras (more important on video cameras), I much rather have a better low latency wireless input of audio for syncing without timecode (since timecode never gets wireless)
8 (nr2) A given that's as old of a request as wireless timecode.

If all this, I would estimate the camera only to cost $120 000

 

[Andrew Reese]

I do not see my requests as somewhat unreasonable for a 2022-2023 release camera considering we have already seen the release of a fairly decent 12K sensor in 2020 with the very competitively priced Ursa Mini Pro 12K. Then there is also the competitively priced Kinefinity Mavo Edge which is coming out in 2021 and is already promising a lot of what is mentioned above outside of Global Shutter for just $11,999.

The Mavo Edge is the form factor of Komodo + Alexa Mini and has all ports and more built into the body while still being very close to the size of Komodo and is comprised of carbon fiber construction to reduce weight. I tested the Mavo LF prior to purchasing my Gemini and if you have used a Kinefinity you will immediately recognize that their latitude and color science is very close or on par with RED. The Mavo Edge has a full frame sensor that does 3:2 open gate at 48fps, 8k/75fps and 6k/100fps even in a small "hard to cool" form factor. It also has Dual-ISO, internal ND, internal ProRes Raw / ProRes4444/XQ, / ProRes422HQ, and H264 proxy recording, streaming over wifi or usb-c for video transmission with integrated control via the Kinefinity App just like Red Control, and it even has 5G connectivity. The Mavo Edge offers a heck of a lot for a price of just $11,999 and yes it runs off of small integrated BP-U batteries or V-mounts / Gold Mounts.

I am by no means promoting Kinefinity at all as I love my Gemini and Komodo and plan on supporting RED in the future with DSCM3 but i'm just saying the competition has gotten pretty fierce in the last year and to stay at the top I expect that we are going to need to see Monstro IQ and HFR capability with all of the modern fixings (AF, Built-In Wireless Video Transmission to > 500', Internal ND,) in a Komodo form factor with interchangeable locking mounts and a Global Shutter sensor in order to ask $60k and be RED's flagship model in 2022/2023.

1. Needs low power exceptional heat transfer.
2. The size of photosites is in relation between sensor size and resolution. The size of the photosites will be equal to Monstro if you have an FF 8K camera, at 12K they get smaller. A global FF sensor might also decrease FPS.
3. Global shutter and more FPS? Phantom has a global shutter and high fps and it costs... a lot.
3 (nr 2) On BP batteries power draw?
4. So, all of the above, but with BP batteries? That would mean a revolution in processing power and sensor draw plus extreme heat reduction innovation. Not to mention power a super bright (2000 nits?) monitor as well.
5. That would mean going back to something closer to DSMC2 form factor size.
6. Then skip wireless and go with better transmitters. Also gonna take up space.
7. This I'm behind, I don't get why this isn't a standard thing, seriously Red.
8. Audio is pretty much irrelevant on cinema cameras (more important on video cameras), I much rather have a better low latency wireless input of audio for syncing without timecode (since timecode never gets wireless)
8 (nr2) A given that's as old of a request as wireless timecode.

If all this, I would estimate the camera only to cost $120 000

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

IMO, the Komodo provides a small form factor camera suitable for a huge range of use cases. It's no Monstro, but the IQ is high enough for 99% of applications.

Because we have the Komodo, what's the downside of making DSMC3s Ranger-ish? A larger form factor might allow for more processing muscle, better cooling and more integrated functionality - full sized XLRs, some key manual controls, enhanced gyro data, stronger wireless TX, support for higher frame rates (internal NVME cache perhaps), etc.

I also see a benefit to having a camera system that requires fewer add ons for most shooting scenarios. Not every cameraperson knows the RED world like the denizens of RedUser, versatility inevitably adds at least some complexity. Ranger was developed primarily for rental houses who, among other things, didn't want to mess with so many bits and bobs.

IAC, with so many capable cameras out now, I would vote for DSMC3 to be whatever size is necessary to be enough better than other options to justify it's existence/cost. If that can be done in a tiny cube, that's great - but I'd rather have a well balanced, full featured, ergonomic camera +/- 10 lb. that ticks all the boxes than trying to win a miniaturization contest when we already have Komodo in the arsenal...

Cheers - #19

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Fully agree Blair. Komodo has very specific use and can be built up significantly.

But I love the form factor of the Rangers. They simply are the sh-t. So global shutter at 8-12K and some nice frame rates would be awesome but not too soon as I have to recover investment on my cameras.

 

[MorganMaassen]

amazing it's been 5 years since the 6k Weapon Woven CF, i received mine in december 2015.

3) Frame Rates better or equal to DSCM2 - I would like to see 8k/100fps, 6k/200fps, 4K/400fps and 2k/800fps so RED could start being used instead of FreeFly Wave or lower end Phantoms​

i would do anything for this.

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

Global Shutter, frame rates, dual Iso, Full frame, are all sensor-based features, so I guess it won't be upgraded anytime soon.
Red has already 4 sensors techs in use. Let them die before releasing new ones.

The DSMC3 brain should bring :

Instant boot up, let's say up to 10 seconds.
Instant rec/playback switch.
Instant magnify

5-axis sensor stabilisation
In-body ND (and eliminate every other mount than PL & EF)
DSLR quality Autofocus

Integrated wireless video for smart devices.
Ultra bright 4.7" Red LCD.
Separated EVF-LCD-SDI1-SDI2 channels. No HDMI, no shared output.
At least one 4k output.

More pogo power for cableless accessories, and not only pogo displays but focus/iris motors controls like Latitude Sidekick.

Red needs to work deeper with Creative Solutions : Teradek, SmallHD & RT Motion.
We should be able to have lens motor control only by plugging a cable.
We should be able to have lens informations display on the camera body, and then sent through the monitors overlays.

The Rangers should have had a RTmotion Latitude Sidekick built-in since the beginning.

What's missing in Red Ecosystem is something as good as the WCU-4.
As they don't produce FIZ controllers anymore, they should let other brands in the loop and who's better than Creative Solutions Teradek RT(motion) ?

I mean, it should be :
You work with an Arri, you have a WCU-4 and Cmotion motors.
You work with a Red, you have a CTRL.x and RTmotion motors.
I want to be able to control the whole camera with the FIZ controller.

Also, Red need something similar to the Arri OCU, much like RTmotion Smartknob, but smaller and pluggable to their motors directly.

So Red, please, work with Creative Solutions. Take cableless to the next level !

 

[Steve Wall]

The things which have kept DSMC2 + RED at the top of the game are being slowly matched by every competitor, at varying price points. I think once upon the time there was nothing that really came close, whereas now a lot of jobs are better suited to a Pocket / C500 / FX6. Looking at it objectively, the other cameras have gotten good enough now that RED needs to really turn up the heat to justify a 30-50K system price.

I think the most crucial updates are

- Chasing the next level of image quality, particularly colour.
- < 5 second boot up time. Run and gun work would suddenly become viable
- Upping the FPS v resolution equation, I think 6-8K @ 120fps is where it has to go to improve our 4K outputs.
- Global shutter option - nice, but not if it is at odds with the advance of resolution / frame rate.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I'm not sure DSMC 3 is for me after using the Komodo.

Personally I'd love for RED to go to Rangers and Komodo (sized bodies) with a variation of sensors and features. Selfishly I'm more interested in the Komodo as a camera, but wish it offered more in the way of Frame Rates. If they could find a way to get the Dragon X or the Gemini into a Komodo that'd be game over.

Use the new tech and progression to push DSMC 3 or Ranger forward to catch up and pass BMD with their 12K camera. Not necessarily in terms of resolution but in terms of IQ and Frame Rates. Red is in a strange spot where they can really see the competition finally catching up and in some cases passing them. I think they are in a unique place to have some fun with it and also push the boundaries without necessarily stressing the highest resolution anymore. Whatever they do they really should keep at it with the openess and functionality they have with 3rd party accessories like on Komodo.

 

[Aaron Green]

Full frame CMOS Komodo with dual native ISO.

 

[Maira Fravel]

I would like to see 8k/100fps, 6k/200fps, 4K/400fps and 2k/800fps so RED could start being used instead of FreeFly Wave or lower end Phantoms [/INDENT]

This would be so amazing! Who knows maybe next year. I think it's just about time for this upgrade.

 

[Brett Reynolds]

Full frame CMOS Komodo with dual native ISO.[/QUOTE]


Full frame CMOS Komodo Ranger with duel native ISO

 

[Zack Birlew]

Had a thought about a side project for RED. Since we know that the original roadmap had everything from S16 to Large Format panoramic sensors, how about RED dip their toes into Medium Format by making their own digital cinema focused Medium Format back for several MF camera brands? They can make their own MF cinema body too but having backs as a step-up or starting project could be a nice “two birds with one stone” approach to the concept. Needless to say, some bodies and viewfinder combinations would be incompatible but as with all digital backs, most of the camera is already built and ready to go!

 

[David Peterson]

The things which have kept DSMC2 + RED at the top of the game are being slowly matched by every competitor, at varying price points. I think once upon the time there was nothing that really came close, whereas now a lot of jobs are better suited to a Pocket / C500 / FX6. Looking at it objectively, the other cameras have gotten good enough now that RED needs to really turn up the heat to justify a 30-50K system price.

RED is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

At the high end they're fighting against the premium #1 option of ARRI, and RED can no longer automatically get an edge in for gimbal/drone/crash/car rig cam usage on the high end because the ARRI Mini is available. (and truly compact small cameras such as P4K/GH5S/S1H/X5R/etc are now "good enough" too for many purposes)

Then at the low end the likes of a Sony FS7 / FX6 / FX9 / Canon C300mk3 / C70 / C200 / Panasonic Varicam LT / EVA1 / Blackmagic URSA Mini / etc are all waaaaaaaaaay cheaper and extremely capable. (plus of course those dirt cheap and compact cameras I mentioned before such as P4K/GH5S/S1H/S5/a7Smk3/etc are all really good too now) That's rough competition which RED is facing up against!

We're no longer living in 2010! Or even 2015, the world has drastically changed since then. RED is no longer the only big player in their niche.

Komodo & Raven is RED acknowledging they need to drop their prices if they wish to survive and stay competitive. (I think they need to go even cheaper)
Likewise their partnership with Panavision and the RED Ranger is acknowledging that RED has to seriously up their game if they want to stay viable at the very high end too (simply chasing "more K" is sufficient).

 

[Nick Morrison]

RED is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Not sure if I agree with you. The Komodo has been *very successful* so far. It's impressing a lot of people, particularly higher-end cinematographers who tend to gravitate to Alexa Mini, LF, etc.

Komodo has, in effect, done a bit of rebrand for RED - those folks were put off by RED's more macho image, or their proprietary media, or their high Ks (ie a lot of the Arri crowd), seem pretty smitten with Komodo.

Komodo has opened up RED to at least two new markets - serious DPs at the top, and even more of the ambitious DPS at the bottom, just starting out.

My gut tells me RED is going to keep selling LOADS of Komodos, and make $$$.

And then my second guess is when RED decides to run with the Komodo brand and make a big brother version (either a larger Monstro sized sensor, and/or one with higher frame rates of 120fps+)...then that too has a chance to really shake the market, and sell like hot cakes.

Remember, Komodo has a global shutter. That's kind of a big deal that we sort of forget about. On big productions with lots of green screen (and action scenes), this becomes a *really big deal*. I can see a Komodo Big Brother camera actually being quite an important development.

In short, don't underestimate RED. They seem to know what they are doing. And most importantly, they seem to be learning, and appealing to larger demos.

My next goal for RED is to do drop the macho image/branding ("bomb squad", etc) so they can appeal to more women. As our sets and industry gets more democratized, this going to be an important step for RED. The larger the appeal, the larger the market.

Look I've had issues with RED. I've been burned by Jarred on these very boards (which I didn't love, and still irks me to this day). But I admire them for standing alone in the cinema world, and doing their own thing. They are not a multinational globally traded company. We tend to forget that. So I always root for them, warts and all. Cuz they always just seem to get better and learn, which I really admire. That's not easy to do, especially on a corporate level.

So onwards and upwards, and Happy Holidays to all.

 

[David Peterson]

Not sure if I agree with you. The Komodo has been *very successful* so far.

If you go back and read my post again:

Komodo & Raven is RED acknowledging they need to drop their prices if they wish to survive and stay competitive. (I think they need to go even cheaper)
Likewise their partnership with Panavision and the RED Ranger is acknowledging that RED has to seriously up their game if they want to stay viable at the very high end too (simply chasing "more K" is sufficient).

Komodo is massively successful exactly because RED went for a price that was easily sub $10K