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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What will *you* rent it for?

What will *you* rent it for?

  • Total voters
    303
That's really true! I have been looking into other things like the hpx500. I wanted to use the red becuase i really believe in the project and think it would be a good showcase for the camera. I will wait and see what the actual rental rates are and go from there.
 
If the rental rates are too ridiculous from major houses, Nathan, you would be best off finding a smaller owner / operator because I know some of us don't intend to charge $3,000 per day ;)

I agree that the setup IBloom was talking about could look really nice, though.

I think a lot of rental prices are ridiculous, though, not just what some people want to make from the RED. I'm sorry but $300 to $400 for an HVX-200 is a joke. I could buy it, use it on a few shoots, and re-sell it and be better off. Or just keep it to rent out for smaller budget productions, behind-the-scenes footage, whatever.
 
Hi,

I voted <500k and this is the reason:

As stated in the poll we are talking about a RED body, EVF and production pack. No batteries, lenses, s.o. An aquivalent package in the F900 world will cost you around € 500,- a day (Germany) - if you are a frequent customer.

A RED with the EVF and the production package will cost the rental house approx. 25k - this is less than half of the costs for a F900R (55k).

I am pretty sure the RED with EFV and production package will go for the same amount or even less. The rates for the F900R may decrease a bit since the new kid will outperform it on most specs. Good news for F900 fans.

Rental houses make their money with lighting, grip and other items which hold value for a long time (35mm lenses for instance which will be perfect for RED.)

Infact the rental houses I know see RED as a digital 35mm Camera body, check out the rates for an Arri 235 body with VF and a BP9-Plate with rods...

Remember that a fully tricked out 35mm package with zoom and primes will be close to 2k a day, no reason why the same package with a RED body should be cheaper. RED is not a competitor to the HVX200 or even a replacement...

Then there is the strong need for backup which will need some budget as well and which is not fully sorted out yet.

I won't rent out my RED, since we will use it only for our own projects. But I am very happy that my favourit rental house will get REDs for them selfs, so there is always a backup for the impossible...

Hans
 
Wake up and smell the Sanka

Wake up and smell the Sanka

What you are seeing is an actual Quote I received from one of many rental houses, for my partners first movie as a Director. This Is a Viper and all that you need to shoot an actual movie. I'm a good negotiator I could probably shave 200.00 hear and there on various day rates. This is a two camera shoot. no personal other than initial set up is included. I've seen Viper footage, and I've seen red footage. It is clear to me who the winner is. 4 week shoot 28 days 12 rental days.


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No speculation, real world quote.

FYI some 35mm film numbers for you. Fuji 35mm 400 8582, special deal from Raw in NY. .25 cents a foot. 90min finished film=8100 feet 10:1 shooting ratio=81000 @ .25= 20,250.00, nothing exposed. Remember 2000.00 a day for all the stuff you do after light hit's negative. (refer to earlier in the thread for details) 28 days @ 2000.00 = 56,000.00 that's 76,250.00. We haven't even gotten to the camera yet.

If you quote a Producer 4000.00 a day for a complete Package with all the personal, and a bullet poof work flow with solid data management. This all at a 3 day week. Your saving the company 28,250.00 remember there is no money figure in for the cost of 35mm camera gear which he still has to pay.

This is what the savvy Producers know, that you don't, or are unwilling to except. They don't care about all the tech shit we obsess about. Why because the butts in the seats don't really care, they can't tell the difference, with red we can barely tell.

He sees the future, 10 years from now 4k I suspect will be just like HDTV today. He'll be ready to re-tread the old tire, and sell it again. Because he's a good businessman or Woman.

As a business person if your Customer knows more, about the value of your business than you do. Your not much of a business person, you're a Chump and will learn the painful laws of diminishing return. Sad to say I'll most likely be picking up your gear on the secondary market.

This is not f9 whatever, it's not HDV, its a feature film camera. Designed for that purpose.

So stop acting like a bunch of Nancy's. Unless of course you're really a Nancy. In that case get up on that feminist Horse and kick some male dominate ass girl friend.

You price right, some will hang up, but most will call back.
 
Nice post.

I just don't think rental prices will be at the extremes that either party really thinks, I mean there's no way you will ever get a RED body, EVF, and production pack for $200 per day. It just won't happen. Ok maybe 35 years from now, but I'm talking realistically any time in the next five years, it isn't going to happen. I've seen the Canon XL-2 rent for $225 per day, and that's a $3,000 camera. And you can't say, "Well blah blah it's complete blah blah," get a clue. The RED isn't even close to the level of a freakin' prosumer miniDV camera, you won't find it renting for that kind of price. If you can find it for $500 per day, three day weeks that's going to be an excellent deal. That means most likely if you want it for a month the company will give you further breaks, let's say maybe even 10 to 12 rental days at $500. Even if it was $6,000, that is $23,000 or so in equipment, you can't really say you'd be better off just buying it, because you wouldn't. Not if you're shooting one project, anyway.

But neither will people pay outrageous sums for something they'll be able to buy fairly easily by March 2008, I don't think. Keeping things fair seems the best business plan to me, and as some people mentioned, providing a complete solution for the workflow of the camera, really working with the producer to make the shoot go well on the camera side, that is a service people will pay money to obtain. That's where you can squeeze out some extra cash.
 
Hi Adobeone,

what your are saying is right. RED is going to be like any other camera in the market. If you get a Viper for the quote you quoted in your post, you'll get a RED in a year or so for the same price. It's all just pro equipment.

Though there are rental houses which dump and other which don't have to.
Good for you and your film.

This inconstancy in fees and the fact that you are responsible for your equipment and its reliability is the major reason why most DOP do not own equipment. Two very different businesses.

Hans
 
Weird emotional thread...

well adobeone, if demanding a low price for good equipment makes you a nancy, then I guess you should complain to jannard, since he then would qualify as the mother of all nancies...

Rental price has a natural limit, and that is the price of purchasing the equipment. And I think it will be hard to demand more than 500$ a day for something that cost 20.000$ sure there will be all the additional equipment and personel but that is not what the poll was aiming at...
 
I think one of the issues here is that the poll was skewed to start with. Not having a lens with the camera means that you can't shoot jack crap with it. Not having a battery means you can shoot jack crap...

Really min rental is a Red body, basic production pack, EVF or LCD, lens, CF card or Red Drive, and battery. You really have to have ALL of those things to shoot like you would if you rented a HVX, Varicam, or Viper.

As for lenses, if you need a ENG style lens, it's gonna cost you $3,500 for the B4 adapter, and the cheapest HD ENG lens at B&H is $8,000. So already you are upto $11,500 for ENG and that's not even a good lens.

So that with a RED body, BPP, EVF, Red Drive, & battery is gonna cost $38,000. That sure as heck ain't a $6,000 HVX.

Here's what I feel about 1% rental value vs quality. If red delivers 35MM film quality, then what is that worth you? Is it not worth some $$$ for the work flow RED provides? I mean, being able to monitor in HD, easy HD playback, and ready to edit the next day not worth $$$ to anyone? If I tell a producer that I can save them $1,500 a day over shooting film without quality loss, and provide a fast work flow, why wouldn't they jump on that?

I think the opinion differences are because there are two groups of people buying the RED. There are people like me who run a video production company and will be shooting for corp. clients and commercials. Then, there is the indy filmmakers who see the RED as a tool to get Hollywood quality on a tiny budget. I hate to say it, but the RED is only going to do so much for indy films. Bad scripts, bad lighting, bad acting, and bad directing is still gonna hurt many of those films. What it is going to do is help films like Napoleon Dynamite who have a 200,000-400,000 budget.

I would also be interested to know how much it's going to be used for filmmaking. I am betting that it will have greater use as a camera for commercials, music videos, and corporate videos. That's how I am planning on using it. Of course, I have a $1-2 mil feature in the pipeline for about 2-3 years down the road. David, you wanna come shoot it? It's in the jungles of Peru!:)

Matthew
 
ZzzZZz... said:
Weird emotional thread...

well adobeone, if demanding a low price for good equipment makes you a nancy, then I guess you should complain to jannard, since he then would qualify as the mother of all nancies...

Rental price has a natural limit, and that is the price of purchasing the equipment. And I think it will be hard to demand more than 500$ a day for something that cost 20.000$ sure there will be all the additional equipment and personel but that is not what the poll was aiming at...
Click to expand...

Your not a Nancy if you demand a Low price for good equipment, your a Nancy to give a low price for great equipment.

Bottom line, If Jim had put it out at twice the price I'd of paid it. Jim set his price, and he has to live with it. I Don't know the guy, personally, but I bet when he saw the lines at NAB, he said to himself I should have charge more. Remember he sold plastic sunglasses for 80.00+ a pair.

parity |?parit?| noun
1 the state or condition of being equal, esp. regarding status or pay : parity of incomes between rural workers and those in industrial occupations. • the value of one currency in terms of another at an established exchange rate.

Parity in the market place isn't, " My gear cost less, so I'm going to charge Less" Parity in this case, is what does the customer have to pay in the market place, to have parity to what I have to offer....

If you guys want to cut a deal get something in return, a deferment, or a pice of the pie. If there is a project, or a talented person you want to give a leg up. Great this industry was built on that kind of isolated altruism.

You guys have a pretty good Idea of the kind of guy I am. If I called you and you new it was me, would you rent it to me at 1%. Hell no!!!!

You be, " Take that you soul sucking, black hearted bastard! " I'm just one of very long line of soul sucking bastards, we actually have a club. So remember that when you pick up the phone, it could be me.

In the Interest of saving time, those of you willing to give me 1% for what I would consider a basic package, about 40,000 that has come out of your hard earned bank accounts. Please PM with your info.
 
if your a dp or camera op buying red one.. it doesnt matter if the story sucks.. the story can be soo horrible it burns your brain to watch..
but if the picture looks like an amazing Jubilee of colors and contrast and the lighting is sweet ass.. then word up.. you did your job..

so yah.. if your a story writter or director who wants gloss but sucks at storytelling.. then this camera wont be a fastpass to an oscar anytime soon.
But if you love shooting pictures and making things look good.. this is an extreamly usefull tool that willl indeed boost your output.
 
ZzzZZz... said:
Weird emotional thread...

well adobeone, if demanding a low price for good equipment makes you a nancy, then I guess you should complain to jannard, since he then would qualify as the mother of all nancies...

Rental price has a natural limit, and that is the price of purchasing the equipment. And I think it will be hard to demand more than 500$ a day for something that cost 20.000$ sure there will be all the additional equipment and personel but that is not what the poll was aiming at...
Click to expand...

In fairness to ZzzZzz, he is correct about what poll was about.

But the thread has become way more than that, I've taken away allot more than I thought I would. It has become a clear and frank discussion. Of the realities of world wide production. Feature films professional, ENG and EFP warriors, and the beautiful dreamers who just need that one break. To show us all, they were worth it.

I watched from the beginning 6 days 212 posts 8,415 view. I'm new to this form of discussion, that seems allot for this small of a group, over that short of time.

The longer this thread gets the more the poll changes. The changes reflect the growing understanding of value verses price. The realization that it's not just a pice of gear, but a whole new system of film making, that will change our business forever. That the 1's and 0's held inside the drives, or more than just data. They are the investment, the time, hopes and a life time of dreams, of those we will service.

We have focused the realities and the burdens of the responsibility expressed in the proceeding paragraph. In so doing we have all become sharper, and for the lack of a better word tempered. Ready to change our little pice of the world.

maybe it's time to close the thread, I don't know. I sure look forward to looking at it everyday.
 
I reckon the plausability of ownership plays a large roll in lowering the price of a Red package compared to any other digital cinema camera.

For the same reason that everyone here is purchasing a RedOne, that same thought will cross the mind of anyone looking to shoot a movie with it.

Why do people rent a viper or other for so much? Well if they break it on set they'll get another one supplied. If they bought one then they would be stuffed if they broke it. With the pricing structure of RedOne the producers won't mind sticking down payment on five of them for a two camera shoot. They have three spare and it's cost them the same as the viper package and they've got even more immediate access to backup or extra cameras.

I think a lot more production companies will begin owning their own RedOne's and this in turn will greatly lower the demand on rental.

If people charge excessive amounts for their RedOne camera this will only exacurbate the situation.

The savings in the cost of the camera must be past onto the client. If it isn't then the rental community will suffer.

It's not a question of quality, it's a question of economics.
 
PaulClements said:
The savings in the cost of the camera must be past onto the client. If it isn't then the rental community will suffer.

It's not a question of quality, it's a question of economics.
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

Wise words IMHO.

Stephen
 
A time for evrything brothers…

First there will be high demand and low supply, and we ought to make the best of it, and I don't mean overcharging like crazy.

Then ther will be much higher and immediate supply, combined with lower
demand, and rental price will settle.

I don't see what's so arguable about this…really.

Emmanuel
 
It is very simple supply and demand. At first, unless you got a reservation a long time ago, you can not buy a camera and use it right away for ANY price, unless you can find someone willing to sell their camera for a premium. Also at first, even rentals will be very limited. These factors will inflate rental prices sky high. When time passes, more rentals will be introduced into the market and rental prices will start to come down some. By the time you can buy a camera and have it delivered right away, rentals will drop in line with the camera's price, and you will be able to buy a used camera on eBay at a discount..
 
Your not a Nancy if you demand a Low price for good equipment, your a Nancy to give a low price for great equipment.
Click to expand...

well if that´s what you meant, every owner of a red one is a nancy...:mail1:
 
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