What will *you* rent it for?

[donatello b]

"it's the other way around. They can't compete with me, and shouldn't even try."

price isn't everything ... you might have a sachtler head and the DP wants a miller ... you have a brand X FF and the AC wants Arri 5 FF ... when the AC checks out the equipment at a rental house perhaps they don't like the "feel " of the Arri 5 FF so they ask for a different Arri 5 FF and that one "feels" better and if not they might switch to a different FF ....
too low $ rental attracts no budget or almost no budgets projects ... a project with 10 mil budget doesn't care if the rental price from a individual is 100 week and same equipment is 2500 week at rental house = they'll get it from rental house because of SERVICE - the 2400 week savings can be lost in a few hours "IF" ....

... now if the budget is 100K then 2400 savings does make a difference ...
from my experience over the years i tend to find no budgets extremely demanding , they tend to want everything for nothing and expect the same service that one would get from panavision ....

there's room for different rental prices ... no budgets ( under 100k) will be looking for the "deal" ... 1mil project might consider a different $ rental then a 15mil budget project ....

 

[Nathan Buxton]

Donatello, good points, and that's what it ultimately comes down to :what people are willing to pay, and to whom they are willing to pay it.

I think a lot of you are in for a surprise!

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

If productions, big and small are facing the choice between renting expensive (film), outdated (red's competition) and the Red; I'm guessing the Red will be in very high demand until something better comes around.
Anyway I look at it, I come to the same conclusion:
-Red will and should start with pretty high rate, depending on the kit, the service and the reputation of who is renting, anywhere between 1500$ and 5000$ a day
-Then when the market gets flooded with RedOnes it could settle to something like 750$ or 500$ to 2000$ or 3000$ a day.

It screems logical to me at least, and I strongly believe this goes along the most classical market rules : demand and offer.

The demand will vary greatly depending on the results the prototypes are having with the features being shot right now. If it's a failure, we may have to settle for a bitter meal.
But if those protos score Big Time, then we may be in for a jolly good time renting our cameras.
Then let's not fool ourselves, it won't last but for the most talented, reputable, and prepared among us. I wish I was a bit more of all this, but that's another story.:umm:

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

"it's the other way around. They can't compete with me, and shouldn't even try."

price isn't everything ... you might have a sachtler head and the DP wants a miller ... you have a brand X FF and the AC wants Arri 5 FF ... when the AC checks out the equipment at a rental house perhaps they don't like the "feel " of the Arri 5 FF so they ask for a different Arri 5 FF and that one "feels" better and if not they might switch to a different FF ....
too low $ rental attracts no budget or almost no budgets projects ... a project with 10 mil budget doesn't care if the rental price from a individual is 100 week and same equipment is 2500 week at rental house = they'll get it from rental house because of SERVICE - the 2400 week savings can be lost in a few hours "IF" ....

... now if the budget is 100K then 2400 savings does make a difference ...
from my experience over the years i tend to find no budgets extremely demanding , they tend to want everything for nothing and expect the same service that one would get from panavision ....

there's room for different rental prices ... no budgets ( under 100k) will be looking for the "deal" ... 1mil project might consider a different $ rental then a 15mil budget project ....

Yup. I think that's exactly what I said! But thank you for agreeing

And I still stand by saying that nobody is going to charge 1% of their package per day to rent the equipment. I don't see rental houses doing that, either. I saw a few price lists and the lowest was still nothing near 1% per day. You can quote that number all you want but I've looked at rental equipment prices all over and seen nothing like that. I've even seen them renting out shotgun boom mic setups that cost $900 for $45 per day. Even with three-day weeks that isn't 1% per day, which would be like not even $10 Nobody would bother.

 

[Stephen Williams]

-Red will and should start with pretty high rate, depending on the kit, the service and the reputation of who is renting, anywhere between 1500$ and 5000$ a day

Hi,

For those rates people can shoot S16 & 35mm, strangly I usually shoot 35mm, my budgets seem too small for RED.

Stephen

 

[Michael Brennan]

Exactly.
If the RED rents for $500 per day for just the body and a viewfinder, let's say, the F900 should rent for about $300 a day. I don't care what it costs, that's absolutely irrelevant. They better have it paid for by this point, that should have been built into the business plan. Everyone knows that when you were buying digital technology that was rapidly improving, you're not going to expect that a piece of equipment like that will still be suitable a decade down the road. It's the same with computers. I paid $9,000 for a 2.5 Ghz dual G5 a few years ago with 8 gigs of RAM. You can get a better desktop now for like $4,000. If I rented out my computer, should I charge more for it than a new, better computer just because I paid more? Of course not. That's totally illogical.

No argument that use of 2/3 inch for dramas and commercials will be severley affected by RED, based on REDs higher quality in a segment where camera rental is a relativley low percentage of the budget.

But there is too much invested in tape decks, 2/3 cameras and 2/3 inch HD lenses for DVCPROHD or HDCAM to be written off in the next few years.

It is only when RED has proved that it can do 2/3 as well or better than Sony Panasonic that the tide will begin to turn for what has been the majority of work so far for the thousands of HDTV cameras.

To steal work from f900r for TV programming the 1st question asked will be "is it cheaper"?

Until RED has a track record those trying to do HDTV work will have to be near current HDTV kit on price.

This may not bode well for owner operators in the low budget commercials, drama and features market trying to get a (big) premium for the same core components.



Mike Brennan

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hi,

For those rates people can shoot S16 & 35mm, strangly I usually shoot 35mm, my budgets seem too small for RED.

Stephen

Hi Stephen

That's precisely what I mean :

For those rates you can shoot S16 or 35mm OR you can shoot Red wish Peter Jackson describes as the closest thing to 65mm. Others high end DPs (David Mullen…)compare it to S35.

Now for the same money which do you prefer : S16 35mm S35mm 65mm.

If I was running a production with a decent budget, I know what I would pick.

It's a matter of choice

And please remember that I quoted those rates under the condition that the prototypes used on Wanted and the CHE are delivering the goods, and that the buzz creates a hell of a demand.

Yours

Emmanuel

 

[Michael Brennan]

Historically 1% per day.

Historically 1% per day.

Yup. I think that's exactly what I said! But thank you for agreeing

And I still stand by saying that nobody is going to charge 1% of their package per day to rent the equipment. I don't see rental houses doing that, either. I saw a few price lists and the lowest was still nothing near 1% per day. You can quote that number all you want but I've looked at rental equipment prices all over and seen nothing like that. I've even seen them renting out shotgun boom mic setups that cost $900 for $45 per day. Even with three-day weeks that isn't 1% per day, which would be like not even $10 Nobody would bother.

Jonathan you give me another opportunity to drive home my point.

In the previous post you used a DV camera for rates comprison now you use a microphone?

Why don't you look at rates for professional camera equipment!
Here is a rate card chosen from a competative video rental company in the UK. Look at the rental prices for cameras and lenses and you'll find most fit into the 1% range.
http://www.vmi.tv/ratecard/vmi-hire-ratecard.pdf
ie HD lens that cost £15k is £150 per day to rent.
f900r camera body that costs approx £45k rents for £450
ect
Remember these are rate card prices, they do go lower on negotiation and for regular customers...


By the way my research shows a 416 shotgun mic is $1100, Rycote suspension kit and wind gag $680 and flight case with custom foam $120
Such a kit in the rate card above rents for £12 per day, about $20 or 1%


At the high end a Cineflex V14 stabilised aerial camera is $495k with recorder and accessories the total is around $600k.
Comparing prices worldwide the average day rate for the V14 is $4k to $5k or less than 1%.


As much as I'd like to be proven wrong, historically, 1% is the starting rate... I see no reason for RED and its accessories to be any different in the mid to long term.



Mike Brennan

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Stephen

That's precisely what I mean :

For those rates you can shoot S16 or 35mm OR you can shoot Red wish Peter Jackson describes as the closest thing to 65mm. Others high end DPs (David Mullen…)compare it to S35.

Now for the same money which do you prefer : S16 35mm S35mm 65mm.

If I was running a production with a decent budget, I know what I would pick.

It's a matter of choice

And please remember that I quoted those rates under the condition that the prototypes used on Wanted and the CHE are delivering the goods, and that the buzz creates a hell of a demand.

Yours

Emmanuel

Hi Emmanuel,

I remember James Cameron saying a F900 was equal to 65mm & George Lucas said it was better than 35mm, I did not agree with them at the time!

I would probably go with 35mm Anamorphic and a photochemical finish, depending on the script, probably the best value / quality solution. Looking forward to a Red v 35 anamorphic back to back test.

However if a loaded Red was $500 a day then Red would be cheaper, at up to $5000 it's not

Stephen

 

[Evin Grant]

I decided to price an Aaton 35 at Abelcine because I think size wise it's the closest 35mm camera to the Red. I can get a full package less lenses for $685 a day. Including a good tripod/head, mattebox, follow focus and necessary stuff like Mags and batts. Lenses are more expensive but sine I'll start with a complete Nikkor Prime/Zoom set so I priced those from Sammy's camera at about $261 per day. That puts us right in at $946 add $50 for a Macbok pro and I think $1000 a day is a pretty good price for a Red/Nikkor shooting package. I do think demand may bring this higher in the begining but I like the nice round feeling of $1000 a day. Substitute Red lenses, Zooms+Primes and you're talking $1800-$2k per day.

 

[donatello b]

the Aaton 35 might be around the same size as the RED but it is not so silent ... in general on interiors for sync sound it's too noisy ... exteriors you can probably get away with it ? ...
IMO if you are doing a project without actors then it would be a good camera to compare to RED ... however if you are using actors then IMO find a silent camera to compare against RED

 

[Nik Manning]

Okay I have an opinion. As a video editor I cannot see RED camera rentals costing more than a Varicam rental in the future when there are enough RED cams around to cover demand. In the short term yes you can command a premium because you can't get it anywhere but after that phase it will be a regular rental item. I think $800 tops was my answer in the poll. The way to make cash on it is to bundle it with lenses,monitors,etc. that cost a lot of money then you can rent you 80k package.

One thing that you aren't factoring in is the proven workflow of using Varicam and f900 cams. Just like folks still shoot film because it has been proven to work again and again.
You expect all that to change immediately because of one camera? Not gonna happen! Yes in 3 years there will be RED cameras used on a lot of major productions but don't doubt the stubbornness of professionals. These HDcam decks and DVCPROHD decks will be the brains of many productions for years to come. So yes indie filmmakers will jump on RED to make a flick, but don't expect TV to jump so quick. Remember None of the TV stations broadcast in 4K! So that is a huge market that doesn't need to rent 4K.

Also with the sentimental rental rates that is higher than a popular camera that cost 2X the money is crazy. I just hope you didn't write your business plan with $1500 a day rate for 2 years for 24k worth of equipment cause the market won't let that happen. Yes professional rental companies may charge close to that but if your not that you will charge less, but oh there are also 700 guys renting their RED cameras so it is going to be difficult to charge high prices.

This isn't for the folks that hopped on early as they will probably pay off there cameras in the first 6 months as the demand will be high enough to charge 2k per day with a minimum 10 day month rental. 1 month and it is almost paid off. Lucky/Crazy/Brilliant move.

All I am saying is this camera is for people who plan on making movies not people who plan on renting it out and paying it off in 6 months if you aren't in the top 1000.

 

[Nathan Buxton]

Look the point you guys are all missing is that sure, there is a buzz about RED, and sure technically it should get better images... but it will not be instantly practical to use so there won't be as much demand as is anticipated.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I decided to price an Aaton 35 at Abelcine because I think size wise it's the closest 35mm camera to the Red. I can get a full package less lenses for $685 a day. Including a good tripod/head, mattebox, follow focus and necessary stuff like Mags and batts. Lenses are more expensive but sine I'll start with a complete Nikkor Prime/Zoom set so I priced those from Sammy's camera at about $261 per day. That puts us right in at $946 add $50 for a Macbok pro and I think $1000 a day is a pretty good price for a Red/Nikkor shooting package. I do think demand may bring this higher in the begining but I like the nice round feeling of $1000 a day. Substitute Red lenses, Zooms+Primes and you're talking $1800-$2k per day.

Thats about what I was going to charge for my package. Good to hear. I'll add a small fee for operating, until my expertise becomes more expensive/valuable.

 

[Nik Manning]

Look the point you guys are all missing is that sure, there is a buzz about RED, and sure technically it should get better images... but it will not be instantly practical to use so there won't be as much demand as is anticipated.

Exactly! Plus there will be 1000 other folks with RED cams trying to rent them out. I still want to hold one so bad. Yeah if I had the money and a project I would pay 2k per day to rent it if I couldn't get it anywhere else when the first batch is released.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I think there is no middle ground in this whole discussion to be honest, you have one group of people who are convinced you should be able to rent your RED for $1,000 per day even though a basic RED package only costs $35,000, and these people are talking not about that $35K but about $17,500 plus $3,000 EVF and the production pack, so not even $25,000 in equipment for $1,000 per day, that's insane.

Then you have the other group acting like RED owners and operators are basically going to have to prepare for giving their equipment away for free because nobody is going to pay for it, blah blah, namely Nathan, who has no clue at all about market conditions but just wishes REDs were cheaper so he could use one, obvious from every post you make, Nathan.

On both sides, it's people with a certain interest, the one group that may not have a RED on order wants to think prices will be cheap and affordable. The group that ordered early wants to think this is finally their ticket to that mansion in Beverly Hills, or something.

Mick -- I've still not seen the prices you are talking about at almost any rental company I've ever been to. Maybe with all relevant discounts you can get that good of a deal, but not over here you can't, I've seen rental prices at many, many places. If you're telling me that you think rental companies are ever going to charge $175 to rent the RED one body I think you're insane, it's not going to happen. Not unless they're massively overcharging for everything else, in which case it's a total loss-leader and irrelevant.

Back to what I was saying, I think people should be pleased with an economically reasonable return on investment for their equipment, because it's a slam-dunk that you're going to be able to rent out your equipment for reasonable prices. If I have $85,000 in equipment, I'd be satisfied renting it out for $850 per day after discounts (the 1%, which I think you can still get more than), but not before. I could still charge extra for additional services and be making easily more than $1,000 per day, which isn't that bad of money. As it's not what I want to do primarily, I have my own filmmaking goals, as a nice side business it would be fine.

None of that logic applies to the first few months of the RED, I'm sure early reservation holders will make a lot more. But some people on here are acting like you're dreaming to think you can make $1,000 per day off a complete package for the RED, which is not the case. It won't be difficult at all to rent out a package like that frequently. Exactly because of what Stephen said, another skeptic on here -- you can't rent anything else that good for $1,000 per day (prime lenses, zoom lenses, reference monitor, tripod, 4K camera, on-set laptop for capturing, follow focus, matte box, batteries, recording media, etc? You're going to find that for a better deal? Good luck). I don't think there's any chance I could be disappointed for what I can charge for the equipment I will have, because even if it was as low as $850 per day for all of that I still wouldn't be crying. I could make a solid return and if I could keep the package rented out for just more than 10 days per month I could make $10,000 per month of my investment back. In a year I'd have the package easily paid for.

 

[Nathan Buxton]

It's not that I wish it was cheaper... I wish it was more readily available becuase i want to shoot early 2008

 

[Evin Grant]

And how long is your shoot and what do you have for a rental?
You may find it's entirely possible if you have good material.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I'd help you out for a more reasonable price, Nathan, but I don't get my camera package until probably February.

 

[I Bloom]

It's not that I wish it was cheaper... I wish it was more readily available becuase i want to shoot early 2008

If you are making a short, think about the HVX200 with a P+S mini 35 adapter and some Zeiss Superspeeds. The REDrock M2 and some still primes is also great.

Really, I mean great. That system looks awesome even at 720p. I'm speaking in storytelling terms.

RED is a holy grail right now, just like film has been. Its more important to make your film and save your money for the next film, then wait around for the best format and spend a bunch of loot on it. Truly, its not that important. You should be more focused on your script, actors, and the objects and places that will be infront of the camera. There lies success. Not some pixels.

IMHO Coveting RED should be for camera jockeys only. Aspiring filmmakers should just go make films.

IBloom