What will *you* rent it for?

[Andy Jackson]

Gotcha. But what is your on-set data management and backing up workflow?

Backups will stay entirely in REDCODE RAW... it's the most space effective and lossless way to go. Offloads and backup to two external drives should be more than sufficient. Wow, it feels good to say that considering this is 4k footage!

I've always been a PC guy, so it pains me to say this, but we're planning on having a MacBook Pro on set. It's unclear what the render times are out of REDCINE, but we'll at least be able to do some REDQUICK on set. Dailies should be possible at least with low-quality settings.

Full workflow is unclear since we still don't have full details on how REDCINE will operate.

 

[Michael Hastings]

rental rates and contingencies and Red#206 available before thanksgiving

rental rates and contingencies and Red#206 available before thanksgiving

Until there are hundreds of reds available it should rent for the $1250/day or so that a Sony F900 does - or even more initially. Initially it will be a little different than renting a regular camera because for a while there won't be any replacements if it is damaged or stolen.

Personally I think rental rates for RED will be like this:

FIRST month: name your price could be in the $2500/day range.
2ND to FOURTH: month $1250 -1500/day.
FIFTH month on: Price will gradually decline to about $500/day to $750/day depending on package.

As I said initially RED will be different because there are no replacements. So early rentals should have some sort of bonding associated with it and/or a contract stating that if lost stolen or damaged it will be reimbursed at a price much higher than purchase price say 35K to 40K and have the insurance company sign off on it.

One bad drive and your screwed, as a Producer your camera is like 1/80th of my film's day cost. And if it screw's up! Guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot..

Drive failure or electronic component failure is generally unpredictable and even a perfectly maintained system can fail at any time.

I have done rentals for underwater systems for 25 years and some of the issues are the same.

Anyone renting my RED will sign a fairly severe liability waiver stating that our rentals are only done on the condition that we accept no contingent liability whatsoever, and that we do not have the financial ability, insurance, equipment redundancy, on-staff technical support, etc. to reasonably be able to accept any contingent liability and therefore they accept the risk and the reasonableness of our position. If they have any reliability concerns they should rent a backup (or multiples), shoot redundantly, etc.

In the early months it will be included that there are in fact no comparable systems available for the same price so they accept the risks of using a revolutionary and somewhat experimental camera system and workflow. Again, their contingency plans should include backups, other (much more expensive) alternative systems, etc. If they can't accept those terms, then I can't afford to rent to them. (and others probably can't either)

PS I am planning shoots after thanksgiving - which means RED #206 should be available for rent between Oct10 (if scheduled delivery is correct) to November 20th. and then a little before Christmas and beyond.

 

[Häakon]

The thing is, do you really want someone who can afford a $500 rental playing with the RED? Will they even have insurance for the rental? Around here the RED is going to replace VariCam and 16MM rentals--both which run $800-$1500 a day.

The less you charge for a job the more work you'll have to do.

Taking really low budget jobs attracts more really low budget jobs.

Under pricing equipment in a market hurts everybody.

My feelings exactly. I just have the thought that with a lot of individual/independent users buying the camera (who would not have afforded a Varicam or F900, for example) wanting to get as much return for their investment possible, there will be users willing to rent it to others at the $400-$500 range. In other words, if the option someone presents to the owner is "all I can afford is $400," and they reason that $400 is better than $0 in their pocket, they're going to take up the offer.

I'm just not personally interested in passing my camera around to non-professional productions, because I know how the cheap stuff gets beaten up out there. The more you pay for something, the more you should want to take care of it - that applies to both an owner and a renter.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Now were talking, good stuff here folks. This is what I was looking to see discussed. I like the numbers I'm seeing in this poll.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

I think one reason RED is being made is to put the best (visual) quality in the hands of as many people (film-makers) as possible at the lowest possible price.

The price of Red is the real revolution here. So how can we now turn around and start charging ridiculously high rates to other (low budget) producers? I think anything over $500 a day for just the body and EVF is exploitative and contrary to the RED principle. C'mon. Are we turning into Sony now? Just because we have RED we can charge anything we feel like?

I've spoken my mind. Let your criticism of my views be constructive. I am entitled to my opinion.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

...here in the big leagues, that makes you liable and you are in an actionable possition, if you don't have the that expensive insurance. you're going to get sued. Then I am going to lean your property within legal means.

Donatello 95% of the sharks in this pond are not going to let it go, believe me. New and unproven technologies is a whole different category of risk management for insurance companies. If the fault can be tied to your equipment, your in for rough waters.

This is a very good point, and one that scares the crap out of me.

My policy will be instant backup on site, meaning the red-drive comes off the back and gets backed up to a RAID 1 right away.

It seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to get the producer to sign a waiver of liability regarding exactly this. Like someone said, well maintained brand new drives can fail unexpectedly. I think this would be covered as an act of god under the company's production insurance.

If they want more security than that, we can use compact flash and do the same thing.

 

[Chris Parker]

I think one reason RED is being made is to put the best (visual) quality in the hands of as many people (film-makers) as possible at the lowest possible price.

The price of Red is the real revolution here. So how can we now turn around and start charging ridiculously high rates to other (low budget) producers? I think anything over $500 a day for just the body and EVF is exploitative and contrary to the RED principle. C'mon. Are we turning into Sony now? Just because we have RED we can charge anything we feel like?

I've spoken my mind. Let your criticism of my views be constructive. I am entitled to my opinion.

It is posters like this who will have their RED out on set with some jackass out of film school who gave them $400 for the day, and return it beat to shit.

Running a professional rental service takes time and money. The purchase price of the camera is only one place that rental has to cover. Maintenence, overhead, etc. all take money. My clients wouldn't dream of renting a camera from some schlep who says he'll 'give 'em a great deal'. They would much prefer to spend a few hundred dollars extra to get a bulletproof system (with backups) from someone who they trust.

 

[Russ McDonald]

This what I'm talking about, people the workflow and data management is additional cost, we have to account for. That means more mouths to feed, Proud red parents

 

[Chris Parker]

This what I'm talking about, people the workflow and data management is additional cost, we have to account for. That means more moths to feed, Proud red parents

Of course the data workflow is an extra cost. On top of the rental of the camera.

So is the video assist portion of the scenerio an extra cost.

So is the follow focus/matte box.

This thread initially only talked about the rental for the basic package. Extras are extras.

 

[Russ McDonald]

That is the point, data management is part of the basic package. With this system of image acquisition (it's my word of the week) It's not something you can separate from the camera. It's what makes it the innovative (last weeks word) and groundbreaking system that it is.

 

[Brook Willard]

A few other prices that some people may be interested. I know I've seen some elsewhere in this thread, but here are a few more/repeats.

HVXs can rent for >$500/day
DVXs can rent for >$400/day
SR2s can rent for $200/day
D20s can rent for $3,000/day without recording solution.
F23s can rent for $3,200/day with recording solution.
Origin rents for $1,750/day without recording solution.
Arri ST/LTs rent for $1,400/day without magazines.

HVX DITs are generally $500/day
High-end system DITs are generally between A Cam Op and DP scale.

Just something to think about.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yes but I wouldn't expect to pay a RED DIT what an 'RGB or YUV' DIT makes. Mostly because I'm hoping his job is significantly less difficult and critical.

 

[Chris Parker]

That is the point, data management is part of the basic package. With this system of image acquisition (it's my word of the week) It's not something you can separate from the camera. It's what makes it the innovative (last weeks word) and groundbreaking system that it is.

Data management is NOT part of the basic pacakge. It is an extra item, with many options. Some low budget music video may not want anything except two red drives to fill up and have some production manager-type download (or their buddy who is editing).

On the other hand, high end commercials would demand that a full, fail-proof backup system be implemented, and would be willing to pay more for that 'extra'.

 

[Russ McDonald]

I respect you but strongly disagree. Regardless of the output it has to be done by somebody.


If Brook is up for it, lets spin this thread a little.

Bid my 4k project people.

Two Cameras matched primes (use the red prime set as a reference) arri mb20 matte box and fallow focus. Both read zooms. Redcode archived, 1080p for the offline edit.

It's 118 pages, two pages a day schedule(60 days) with 15:1 shooting ratio camera. that rounds up to 30 hours of total footage.

Just an intellectual exercise. So feel free to refine and expand the gear and personnel. Remember if I was shooting super35mm, Just processing,telecining, sound syncing Dailies, and HDsr transfers is going to run me about 2000 a day.

 

[Chris Parker]

I respect you but strongly disagree. Regardless of the output it has to be done by somebody.

I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, someone has to do it. But since there are so many different options on how to do it (with different costs) it is an EXTRA, not part of a basic package. That's all I am saying.

No one will rent the REDflash for the same as the red drives, as they cost way more.

No one will manage UNCOMPRESSED data for anywhere near the same cost as any of the REDCODE options, as that is a whole different ballgame.

Anyways, yes it will be done, but charged as an extra.

 

[Russ McDonald]

When the client calls, he or she is depending on you to tell what they need. I'm just saying that at the end of the day your not going to hand them A roll of exposed film or a magnetic tape he never has to see you again.

I know for a fact that they aren't walking off with your red drive. If they rent it they got to have some tangible thing to work with when you say good bye. There has to a minimum output that has to come with the package.

 

[Chris Parker]

We are agreeing really, but just disagreeing on semantics. I agree that they will 100% NEED some sort of image data management. Our difference lies in how we'd approach the clients. I would give them a price with NO MEDIA or data management. Now, maybe this price would be lower than yours as yours would include some sort of data management.

Then, I would walk them through the options and recommend the best workflow for them and charge this as an extra. Then, for my 'special' clients (you know, all of them - wink wink) I would offer them a package discount for everything thrown together as a package.

So you see, we do agree, but are going about it differently - from a marketing perspective.

 

[Brook Willard]

I honestly expect that a RED DIT will be able to pull roughly $1,000/day... at least at first. Set up the camera, give the AC a basic rundown, copy and confirm the footage to a computer/RAID system, troubleshoot if necessary, etc. When knowledge becomes wider spread, that number will drop... but in my opinion, a RED DIT should never make under $600/10+2xOT.

Remember that my opinions are always very narrative cine-oriented. The ENG/EFP/wedding [grouped together for simplicity, not to offend] folks may disagree.

 

[Russ McDonald]

Skip In the immortal words of Daffy Duck. " You have unmitigated gaul sir, and I demand satisfaction!"

Super Soakers at dawn!!!!!

 

[Chris Parker]

I honestly expect that a RED DIT will be able to pull roughly $1,000/day

And how does one become a RED DIT? Is Red going to offer any course to become 'certified' or anything like that? Or are we on our own to figure it all out. Either way would work, just curious as a nice little 3-day workshop on RED DIT would be nice.