What we CAN do...NEW

[Alexander Nikishin]

Also wonder how noticeable will be the mix of 4K material with 2K full sensor scaled footage when projected on the small screen (SD and HD) ?.

If by small screen you mean home viewing on either projectors or HD/SD TV's, you won't notice the difference at all.

You'll need to downconvert the footage to 1080P for home viewing anyway.

 

[Rodrigo Lizana]

Yes that´s exactly what I mean but my experience with film is that the bigger the negative is and the bigger it gets scanned the better the downconversion will look. The question also points to how good will this realtime/on board downcoversion will look like when compared to 4K downcoverted using RedCine. BTW, I really love ANow too.

Regards.

 

[Häakon]

You'll need to downconvert the footage to 1080P for home viewing anyway.

Unless of course you shoot in 1080, which means absolutely no additional downconversion is necessary. (Hey, what a concept!)

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

Okay here's something I haven't heard yet;

2k scaled raw vs 2k scaled rgb. In rgb each pixel represents an rgb value but in raw it is red or blue or green. I know the flexability of raw will be better but wouldn't the rgb look sharper and mix better with full 4k raw?

I'm very happy to have the fps and the flexability of raw just concerned with 2k raw vs 2k rgb and are we giving up resolution?

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Unless of course you shoot in 1080, which means absolutely no additional downconversion is necessary. (Hey, what a concept!)

That's like being offered a California king sized bed but choosing a single instead.

Invite a lady friend over, your single ain't gonna cut it, go with the ca king on the other hand and you're ready for any situation.

My point is, why cripple our higher quality recording options (2K scaled 60fps) when all we have to do is crop in post?

My mentality has always been......

Start off with the best quality, finish off with the best possible quality while you're at it, not vice versa.

 

[Häakon]

My mentality has always been......

Start off with the best quality, finish off with the best possible quality while you're at it, not vice versa.

That's my mentality too. And the best quality (the "California king sized-bed") is 4K.

The option is NOT between a camera that can only shoot 2K or 1080. It's a camera that shoots 4K, and potentially has the option to scale that down to 2K or 1080 in-camera. The only time you need this is when you want faster framerates than the unscaled full sensor can provide onboard, or when instant turnaround is of critical importance. If the goal is "highest quality no matter what," you shoot 4K.

If the end goal is 1080HD, it makes no sense to resize to 2K in-camera just to turn around again and resize to 1080 in post. Not only does this require an additional step, but having to go through a resize process twice (and only a minimal one the second time) means compromising the quality of your final picture. You gain nothing by making a 2K intermediate, and as you said, quality should be your primary concern.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

as you said, quality should be your primary concern.

Hence 2K scaled not 1080P for my over cranked footage which will obviously be inter-cut with 4K 24fps footage.

 

[Häakon]

Hence 2K scaled not 1080P for my over cranked footage which will obviously be inter-cut with 4K 24fps footage.

I do not believe that double-scaled 2K footage will look better than once-scaled 1080 footage for a 1080p delivery. And I care about the quality of my final output.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

I do not believe that double-scaled 2K footage will look better than once-scaled 1080 footage for a 1080p delivery. And I care about the quality of my final output.

And I care how my footage will look on the big screen preferably, not on my blu ray home theater projector.

Remember the good old saying, "If you haven't seen it on the big screen, you truly haven't experienced Star Wars." :biggrin:

 

[Häakon]

And I care how my footage will look on the big screen preferably, not on my blu ray home theater projector.

Please pick an argument. For theatrical projection, you shoot 4K. For 1080p home delivery, it makes more sense to have a singular 1080p option than creating the process of having to shoot 2K and resizing it again. If your projects are so big that they are going to be theatrically distributed across the country and quality cannot be sacrificed, buy/rent the optical raw port and get the framerates you need. Or, since the highest fps possible seems to be your individual primary concern, shoot windowed and get the most juice out of the camera you possibly can. But scaled 2K offers no higher framerates than 1080 does. Period. The resolution difference is so small it's moot, and both formats would be RAW so the elasticity of the image isn't even an issue. The only thing you gain by shooting scaled 2K with the intention of scaling again to 1080 is a headache from the extra steps you have to take to get there.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I do not believe that double-scaled 2K footage will look better than once-scaled 1080 footage for a 1080p delivery. And I care about the quality of my final output.

Actually double scaled RGB usually turns out a bit better than single scaled if you have the proc cycles to spare.

 

[Joe Aurili]

I'm sure the best quality option for 1080P would be to shoot in 4K RAW and down convert to 1080P in post. You get the most oversampling and the benefit of non-real time processing power to get the best quality scale.

 

[Häakon]

Actually double scaled RGB usually turns out a bit better than single scaled if you have the proc cycles to spare.

Depending on the size between scales, I would agree. But I'm not so sure that going from 2K to 1080 is advantageous or desired.

 

[Häakon]

I'm sure the best quality option for 1080P would be to shoot in 4K RAW and down convert to 1080P in post. You get the most oversampling and the benefit of non-real time processing power to get the best quality scale.

There's no question about that; it's what most of us will do. The only problem is deciding how you want to overcrank with the camera as 4K will only go up to 30p onboard. Our only solutions at that point are shoot windowed or shoot scaled to get more fps out of the camera.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

If your projects are so big that they are going to be theatrically distributed across the country and quality cannot be sacrificed, buy/rent the optical raw port and get the framerates you need.

Theatrical distribution is not something that is guaranteed, it's luck of the draw nowadays.

I need 4K @24fps, 2K scaled for all overcranked shots up to 60fps, and 2K windowed for all shots over 60fps, not 1080P.

Shooting with these formats allows me the best quality under the budget constraints I'll be shooting in and still allows for my work to be shown at all 4K/2K digital projection venues.

Sure it might not be picked up by Lionsgate, or it might, who knows. But I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by thinking small with straight to Blu Ray feature films, why would you doubt your talent like that?

In regards to the RAW Port, I don't see the slow mo recording fridge rolling onto many of my sets anytime soon.

 

[Jack Wester]

...buy/rent the optical raw port and get the framerates you need.

If not being able to deliver your harddrive directly to a customer is such a pain, why isn't having to go to a rental house to change the framerate even more painfull?

Or, since the highest fps possible seems to be your individual primary concern, shoot windowed and get the most juice out of the camera you possibly can.

And how would this look using the same lense? Mixing full sensor and windowed?

 

[Häakon]

I need 4K @24fps, 2K scaled for all overcranked shots up to 60fps, and 2K windowed for all shots over 60fps, not 1080P.

Shooting with these formats allows me the best quality under the budget constraints I'll be shooting in and still allows for my work to be shown at all 4K/2K digital projection venues.

In regards to the RAW Port, I don't see the slow mo recording fridge rolling onto many of my sets anytime soon.

It seems to me like you are approaching the camera with a very singular vision; ie, making general decisions based upon the way only YOU would use the camera. I am trying to offer that in addition to 4K onboard recording and 2K windowed recording up to 96fps, 1080 scaled provides the most well-rounded list of options and flexibility for RED ONE. These choices will meet the needs of the broadest range of shooters, while maintaining the highest quality possible and preventing from obsolescence in the future. These are the fundamentals from which RED was built: to be versatile and modular, not niche or specialized.

This conversation feels like it's gotten a little elementary school to me; I've put forward the best information as I can and I am now going to go out and enjoy my evening. I am confident that the Red team is making the most well-informed decisions they can and will give us a RED ONE that is aligned with the objectives they have put out from the beginning.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

One more question :
when playing back a quicktime 4K RAW file on a computer, will we be able to automatically apply a LUT and whitebalance to the 2K / 1K proxy in realtime, or will we only see the original RAW image ?

It shouldn't be an problem. RAW data must be issued a whitepoint and LUT in order for it to be displayed anyway. So the ability to tweak and assign LUTs and ref points for WB is just gravy. Theoretically, we could create LUTs to match or approximate certain film stocks or other camera systems like the Cine-Gamma curves on Panasonic HVX/HPX and Varicam systems. By default, I think the colorspace was REC 601 or 709 or something along those lines for in-camera scaled RGB modes. When dealing with RAW footage in post, just assign the desired LUT and set your WB and there you have it. I think LUTs will be loadable to the camera too so that we have something to apply for output over HDMI, SDI and the EVF/LCD. This LUT could theoretically travel within the metadata or clip file headers as the default color spec for that footage shot using it.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

It seems to me like you are approaching the camera with a very singular vision; ie, making general decisions based upon the way only YOU would use the camera.

I do mainly feature length and short films, my clients want top quality.

All I am requesting is a top quality cinema camera, don't treat me as though I am narrow minded, I find that insulting.

I only wish to have the best camera for my dollar, can you blame me for that?

 

[Brook Willard]

Man, I can't log in for a few days because of some account hackage shenanigans and all hell breaks loose in here! It looks like there have been some pretty exciting changes going on REDside. The prospect of 2K scaled at 60fps is fantastic... particularly considering it's RAW [something I thought was impossible]. I can't wait to hear all the technical details... and I really can't wait to shoot it.

As for generic moderator crap... people have been getting a little testy at points in this [and other] threads. Let's all remember to find a non-jackass way to phrase things when the temptation arises.