What to do

[Mark L. Pederson]

Peter -

I have both cameras. You want both. But don't WAIT for the VV.

I am madly in love with the look and feel of Weapon 8 K VV. It's a very special camera, and now with many more lens options coming out - for feature film work - it's a killer choice.

You might wait a long time to get one, depending on where you are the in que. Contrary to what some people think - the fact that VV's are so scarce is actually a disadvantage. I have lost several jobs that were interested to shoot on VV - but would not take the "risk" without additional / backup VVs readily available.

8K S35 Helium is monster with the new color science and it's increased sensitivity. (Base ISO 1280 FTW) It's going to very quickly take marketshare in episodic / scripted TV & features as it stomps the Alexa with little effort - and few folks can argue with 8K RAW + simultaneous ProRes or DNxHD.

You will love 8K S35 Helium - and it will actually work more often than VV for foreseeable future in long form.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Looking at it from a producer's perspective, I'd feel more comfortable putting your camera on the show if it had the same sensor tech as the A unit. Here on RedUser we can debate the finer points of matching Helium material to Dragon, or how different LightIRON's color might be vs Graeme's "factory" rendition - but that's pretty granular for most of the adult supervision.

Do I think matching Helium to PV/Li Dragpn footy will be difficult for a proper colorist - no, they already match far more disparate imaging devices on many shows. That said, if I were the colorist or post-supe, I'd sure prefer a more homogenous starting point - particularly highlight rolloff. I think Nick makes a good point about grain structure (I'd say pixel pitch, but that's semantics) matching, particularly when dealing with things like motion blur characteristics and moiré. Also agree with those noting that the Dragon color pipeline is more mature.

Cheers - #19

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Looking at it from a producer's perspective, I'd feel more comfortable putting your camera on the show if it had the same sensor tech as the A unit. Here on RedUser we can debate the finer points of matching Helium material to Dragon, or how different LightIRON's color might be vs Graeme's "factory" rendition - but that's pretty granular for most of the adult supervision.

Do I think matching Helium to PV/Li Dragpn footy will be difficult for a proper colorist - no, they already match far more disparate imaging devices on many shows. That said, if I were the colorist or post-supe, I'd sure prefer a more homogenous starting point - particularly highlight rolloff. I think Nick makes a good point about grain structure (I'd say pixel pitch, but that's semantics) matching, particularly when dealing with things like motion blur characteristics and moiré. Also agree with those noting that the Dragon color pipeline is more mature.

Cheers - #19

8K VV is same sensor as DXL. It is not the same sensor as Dragon 6K. Same family - but NOT - 100% NOT just a larger cut of the 6K Dragon.

Yes, you can intercut 6K Dragon with 8K VV - but it will not perfectly match like the DXL and 8K VV can.

But if a PV show is shooting w/DXL - you will want to be using the same size sensor for sure - same lenses, etc - so, if your priority is to maybe play it on a PV show along side DXL - then yeah - VV is the move. But like I said, IMO, from a utilization perspective - unless you have a deal in place with PV for your camera - you will work Helium more often IMO.

 

[Brian Merlen]

even with the best colorists, which he undoubtedly will have access to...one cannot help but wonder if their whole marketing strategy at Panavision in how super cool their colors are, the custom made OPLFs, etc, if one is supposed to easily match this even with the best in the biz?

I dont doubt the plausibility of the skill of the best, but if I had sunk all this R&D like Panavision I'd be damned to make it possible at all if I could help prevent it? Cuz then these colorists can just sell the LUT to anyone with a raven these days and up? if their whole deal is unique color, God help them if a DIT/colorist can match their LUT to a normal red... They are basically screwed then cuz I'd wager the point is to market this as unique stock, not easily dupable, etc. But maybe I'm wrong, PS share the LUT :ihih:

cuz who wouldn't want this...apparently i have a cousin at Technicolor.... if I can score some DXL footy maybe I'll beg him for a LUT myself? I'd believe in them if anyone can match it perfectly to stock reds, but again that really puts a dent in Panavisions business model if its easily replicable... skill and branding of those involved aside it just seems like Panavsion would think ahead to prevent this. the rehouse id bet does incorporate in house stuff, but thats my theorizing


i mean this is supposed to take on Alexa 65 and be unpurchasable by any man... it has to find a way to establish itself against the other reds of the world, so i hope for their sake its impossible to back engineer the look

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

8K VV is same sensor as DXL. It is not the same sensor as Dragon 6K. Same family - but NOT - 100% NOT just a larger cut of the 6K Dragon.
Yes, you can intercut 6K Dragon with 8K VV - but it will not perfectly match like the DXL and 8K VV can.

But if a PV show is shooting w/DXL - you will want to be using the same size sensor for sure - same lenses, etc - so, if your priority is to maybe play it on a PV show along side DXL - then yeah - VV is the move. But like I said, IMO, from a utilization perspective - unless you have a deal in place with PV for your camera - you will work Helium more often IMO.

Interesting to hear that the VV Dragon has different per pixel performance metrics than the 6K Dragon. I did not know that.

I got the impression that Peter was limiting his choice to 6K Dragon vs 8K S35 Helium due to lack of VV Dragon availability. As you note, neither will offer matching FOV or lens coverage to the DXL.

I fully agree that the 8K S35 Helium will be seen as a combination of the latest sensor tech with an image circle that supports the vast inventory of S35 cinema glass DPs know and love - making them popular for lots of shows, easy to rent, etc.

Cheers - #19

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

even with the best colorists, which he undoubtedly will have access to...one cannot help but wonder if their whole marketing strategy at Panavision in how super cool their colors are, the custom made OPLFs, etc, if one is supposed to easily match this even with the best in the biz? (snip) I'd believe in them if anyone can match it perfectly to stock reds, but again that really puts a dent in Panavisions business model if its easily replicable...

First of all, PV is marketing an inclusive premium solution - not just a different OLPF and color matrix. From their highly regarded lenses, all the way to sophisticated color management (from set to final deliverables), PV is about supporting the filmmaking process as practiced by the top creatives in the biz. They are also staking their valuable reputation on getting everything right, not blaming other vendors if things go sideways. If you have the budget, and like the idea of a partner who is responsible for bridging the gap between standard industry practice and the latest tech, it's a hell of a value proposition.

Once the MillenniumDXL is out in the wild we will know more about how their OLPF/color science combo performs compared to the RED implementation. What I can say, is that the handling of wavelengths outside the visible spectrum, particularly IR, is a critical factor - particularly in rendering natural looking skin tones. How much do you filter out in front of the sensor? How much do you let through and then manage in color processing?

Would it make much difference if you could tune the OLPF and color matrix to the known performance characteristics of your own lenses? All OLPFs, by definition, attenuate sharpness to avoid aliasing. What compromises might you have to make when designing an OLPF that needs to play nice with everything from Otus primes to old school Cooke zooms (not to mention SuperBaltars)?

My point is that just getting your hands on a LUT is not necessarily going to be a magic bullet that reverse engineers PV's "secret sauce".

Cheers - #19

 

[Antony Newman]

8K VV is same sensor as DXL. It is not the same sensor as Dragon 6K. Same family - but NOT - 100% NOT just a larger cut of the 6K Dragon.<snip>

Mark - do tell!



AJ

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

All great comments here....

As you may know we shot 9 formats on Transformers 5 often times with 5 of those formats shooting side by side. When Bay got the BayHem which is Helium we shot that next to Red Weapons (both 3D and 2D, Anamorphic and flat) as well as Alexa 65 IMAX 3D and Alexa 65 2D.
Perhaps Company 3 will have some insight into matching all that when more final color is done. I may be privy to that but for now I hope we will start seeing more comparisons.

And who knows what is the future of the Weapon chip versus Helium down the road.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Hey Peter,

I would go VV if I could get the chance. Handheld or not, the DOF characteristics, the sensor texture, all this will work better with a camera with the "same" sensor. My humble 2 cents..

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Nothing humble at all about your 2 cents Sergio.

I guess I should find another feature first and then decide how to proceed. Need to test skin tones with all cameras and highlight rolloff while I search for work

 

[Mike P.]

If either is an option (I was under the impression the 8k VVs are so long off that you'll never get one in a predictable timeframe), I'd go 8k VV.

Even if Helium-VV is coming, it's probably at least 2 years out and the VistaVision size is something that transcends resolution.... no one is gonna complain about 6k s35, so having the 8k VV in your pocket as an option moving forward is value added... It also makes for a more futureproof camera than 8k s35 in my opinion (as it can still deliver 8k).

In other words, sure Helium can provide 8k, but it can't provide VV... 8k VV can provide both.

(take everything I say with a grain of salt; I've been shooting a ton of 5D-MLV lately and really dig the FF35/VV size in spite of its platy ~1080p.)

 

[Brian Merlen]

"an exact match isn't possible"

I have this from Panavision now in writing along with some shots I can't share of the non finalized color science. But I am glad my sentiments seem to be accurate (at least according to them). Esp cuz they haven't finalized the look yet anyway... But overall they are great there, they said I can go in and try to match anything I want to at some point, which I'd totally take them up on. Im still tempted to try and make a LUT for myself if possible, or close as can be? But it seems like their new look really won't be easy to mimic, for now though its a non issue

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

WHO at Panavision is saying you cannot match their 8K VV cameras with Red's 8K VV camera?

Since they got their first 13 camera bodies from the Marvel shoot in Atlanta I find it extremely hard to believe you cannot match....

It is Red's sensor and it is Graeme's color science in the r3d.

I love Panavision but anyone saying you cannot match the footage with let's say Phil's 8KVV camera is gonna have to step up to the plate

 

[Stacey Spears]

WHO at Panavision is saying you cannot match their 8K VV cameras with Red's 8K VV camera?

Since they got their first 13 camera bodies from the Marvel shoot in Atlanta I find it extremely hard to believe you cannot match....

It is Red's sensor and it is Graeme's color science in the r3d.

I love Panavision but anyone saying you cannot match the footage with let's say Phil's 8KVV camera is gonna have to step up to the plate

I interviewed Michael and Ian last week for my doc. We shot it on 8K VV. There was NO mention of not being able to match them at all. The LI color science is going for a cinematic look, not an accurate look. From that stance they will be different, but LI could easily apply their color science to Red 8K VV footage and match them.

BTW, Peter, if you need to rent an 8K VV, mine might be available. There are some upcoming pending rentals.

Here is an upgraded image. (White balance only) 8K HD (VV), ISO 400, Standard OLPF, 709/BT.1886 (IPP2), 5:1, Zeiss Otus 85mm @ f/2.8. One eye is in focus and the other is not at f/2.8! I love the creamy out of focus background. I might be open to sharing an R3D. This is a frame from a doc I am shooting. The plan is to finish in UHD HDR. That is a DXL in the background. Lights were ARRI S30-C (Key), L5-C (Fill), L7-C (back light) and Fiilex P360 (Hair).

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Thanks Stacey,
I can't wait to see your doc btw! Let me know when it is finished.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

So I have a CF Weapon 6K. I am wondering what I should do .....

I f my next feature is with the Panavision 8K VV camera and I want to use my camera as the small hand held like we do on Transformers 5 do I try to get on the 8K VV upgrade wagon...

OR

do I go with the Helium path and go 8K S35 ......

Big question for me......

Looking for advice.....

I would go with the Helium 8k Upgrade... Way better sensor then Dragon no question!

LOVE the VV format, and surely can NOT wait for the Helium VV+ sensor to come... But I would ONLY upgrade to Dragon VV if you have specific needs, like IMAX, as only here you will really see it shine, otherwise the Helium wins hands down.

As for the Panavision Millennium DXL 8k VV sensor, you will be very hard pressed in trying and match it to your Dragon VV off your Weapon camera, as they have completely different Color Science and OLPF, one by RED (Graeme and team) and the other by Light Iron (Cioni and team), which makes them very different from each other and rely not that usable at will, but all is possible, just not as easy as cut and go.

So if your only reason to go VV is that of using it as a hand held option to cut in with the DXL, I would NOT do it.

I absolutely love the VV and truly LOVE what they have done as Team effort with the DXL, and what has made the DXL what it is comes from an incredible team work and a much more comprehensive color science and OLPF design together with a series of inner works that makes the DXL as exclusive as it is.

All in all, while surely not as PORTABLE as the Weapon body by a long shot, the DXL can still be handheld just like any Alexa camera out there, with same effort, no more no less.

To add on, ultimately you need to choose if you want a "VV 8k Larger Format" sensor also more adapt to IMAX, or if you prefer a much cleaner "Helium s35 8k" Sensor, as to allow the capture of absolute stunning High ISO Low Light images.

Very different Sensors here not only in their sizes but in their capabilities of resolving, especially so in Low Light and with Higher ISO exposures.

 

[Brian Merlen]

my understanding was the current color science is easily matchable to alexa (or red with halo), but that the upcoming color science on DXL will not be easily matched. I think that is for the Kodak look specifically... I think the goal is unique stock option on that look. But for now its not even yet available

I'd love r3ds from VV to compare what I have from DXL though if anyone is ever inclined? But what I have is the current DXL stuff, not the future and I'm not allowed to share unfortunately so best to ask Panavision yourself Id guess if anyone needs DXL frame grabs of the current colors and I am sure they will pass it along?

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

As far as I know Ketch the stunningly beautiful test films that Panavision did that I saw screened at the show were shot with Red's OLPF. I know we "heard" that they were going to put a custom OLPF in and thus change a bit of Graeme's color science but I have not seen any proof.

I guess I will ask my friends at PV if I can shoot a test and maybe borrow Phil's VV at the same time if he is willing.

But I appreciate your glowing review of Helium my long lost friend! Happy Holidays

 

[Nick Morrison]

As far as I know Ketch the stunningly beautiful test films that Panavision did that I saw screened at the show were shot with Red's OLPF. I know we "heard" that they were going to put a custom OLPF in and thus change a bit of Graeme's color science but I have not seen any proof.

I guess I will ask my friends at PV if I can shoot a test and maybe borrow Phil's VV at the same time if he is willing.

But I appreciate your glowing review of Helium my long lost friend! Happy Holidays

To me, Dragon sensor is Dragon sensor. The DXL and Weapon VV should be able to match pretty easily. As a B-Cam, I can't see why the Weapon 6K couldn't match easier - just the DOF wouldn't, but that would be the same for Helium 8K, except Helium introduces additional variables of different pixel pitch, noise pattern, and color response.

Too many variables iMHO.

 

[Phil Holland]

One image also on the 85mm f/1.4 Zeiss Otus Prime with the RED Weapon 8K VV Dragon with a look that "may or may not be similar to the general direction of LIcolor":