What should I get Mac or PC ?

[PatrickW]

Mac Pro: 2.66 GHz Quad Core, 6GB 1066 MHz RAM, ATI Radeon HD 4870, 1TB 7200 RPM, etc. ~$3000.

PC: 3.2 GHz Six-Core O/ced to 4.2 GHz ($900), 12GB 1600 MHz RAM ($400), Nvidia Geforce GTX 470 / ATI Radeon HD 5870 ($350/$400), 2TB x 2 in RAID0 ($240) for offline storage, 128GB SSD x 2 in RAID1 ($500), X-Fi Fatality sound card ($200), a superb enclosure, high end motherboard and cooling system plus all the necessary accessories ($500), opportunities for endless tweaking, etc. ~$3000.

Besides, PC has NEVER failed me.

Your comparing Apples to Oranges.
A) Your comparing a prebuilt computer to a home built one. This means you dont have a warranty or easy tech support. This means you may have compatibility issues. This means that you have to invest more time ($$$) into building and maintaining your rig. This is not factored into the cost. Go spec out a comparable machine from Dell or HP and see how close they are to Apples price for WORKSTATION GRADE computers.
B) Your pricing for the PC is on the cheap side. $500 for a case/powersupply, motherboard and cooling and accessories is low. A decent mobo is around $300, cases with power supplied are $250+... And you didn't include the cost of Windows or the other software that ships with a Mac
C) comparing an overclocked computer to a stock workstation in terms of speed is fine, but how do they compare in terms of reliability. Fast render times are great, but not if it crashes mid-render and you need to render the project again.

"A PC has NEVER failed me" That is a ridiculous statement, and not something that I would count on for a production computer.

Mac vs PC is something that some people can't look at objectively and include all the relivant facts. You need to look at the total cost of ownership not just that cheapest system you can buy. This includes support, cost of downtime, software, the time to spec and build/install a machine.

I am not saying that a mac will be better or a pc is worse, but simply that people need to be fully aware of what their choices are and that its not simple to say this is better because its less money NOW.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Keep in mind that you are comparing a i7 processor with a nehalem xeon processor. Most of the price of the mac goes to the nehalem xeon. That's a separate comparison all together, but Xeons are for workstation use, and are very expensive.

a 2.66 ghz nehalem xeon processor alone is 1 thousand dollars, 1/3 of the price of that quad core mac.

First of all, a 2.66 GHz Nehalem Xeon can cost $284, not necessarily $1000. This one: http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=39718. Now, there's a Gainestown version that costs more. Later, the Lynnfield Xeon released, costing even lesser, but this is clearly not in the Mac Pro. The 3.33 GHz six-core in the competing $3000 build, however, is clearly $1000.

you can get good deals on quality ram at macsales.com, but you can claim up to more ram because you are working on a workstation motherboard.

I"m serious when I say, if you actually spec out equal 1:1 parts as close as possible to a mac, and convert it to a PC, the PC runs very close to being the same price. Few hundred dollars difference. The real question is, is the performance level in a workstation spec vs a more pc/gaming spec that much different?

Those are the really questions that should be asked about mac/vs pc. Mac USES pc parts, it's been that way since intel processors came in, the g5 was the last of the first party stuff apple made. Everything in your mac is made outside of apple, according to Apple's spec sheet.

So my question is, what is the performance difference in a work station type configuration and a more typical high power pc configuration?

Nope, I can't agree with you at all. It is clear Apple is built on high margins. The upgrade from 1TB to 2TB costs $250. For that price, you can get 2 TB hard drives and retain your 1TB! For example. This is the case throughout.

There is no reason to use a server CPU unless:

a) You want ECC buffered RAM.
b) You want multi-processor support.

For us cinema post-production crowd, using a Xeon over Core i7 holds no tangible advantage. The CPU is exactly the same. Unless you want a 24 or 48 core system. Which, inconveniently, Mac Pros don't offer.

I am just looking at things from the point of view of my use. I have re-iterated that time and time again. It doesn't have to be right for your purposes. I have no doubt there are applications where a Mac Pro's server platform could be beneficial. But not for me.

Your comparing Apples to Oranges.
A) Your comparing a prebuilt computer to a home built one. This means you dont have a warranty or easy tech support. This means you may have compatibility issues. This means that you have to invest more time ($$$) into building and maintaining your rig. This is not factored into the cost. Go spec out a comparable machine from Dell or HP and see how close they are to Apples price for WORKSTATION GRADE computers.
B) Your pricing for the PC is on the cheap side. $500 for a case/powersupply, motherboard and cooling and accessories is low. A decent mobo is around $300, cases with power supplied are $250+... And you didn't include the cost of Windows or the other software that ships with a Mac
C) comparing an overclocked computer to a stock workstation in terms of speed is fine, but how do they compare in terms of reliability. Fast render times are great, but not if it crashes mid-render and you need to render the project again.

"A PC has NEVER failed me" That is a ridiculous statement, and not something that I would count on for a production computer.

Once again, I reiterate. I only speak from my personal experience. I am not here to make objective claims. I am just explaining my method. Sure, it took me 10 hours more to build my rig. It also saved me a 10000 hours. Like I have mentioned before, I am just looking for the best solution. The closest solution from Apple is the Mac Pro. Whether it is a workstation or desktop platform doesn't matter to me. Whether it is overclockable or not doesn't matter to me. I just want the best solution that will increase my productivity significantly.

I did make a mistake with the $500. But I am sure you noticed that I overpriced the rest of the components. Fine, let's give $750 or $1000 for the misc stuff. It is still a better deal.

Mac vs PC is something that some people can't look at objectively and include all the relivant facts. You need to look at the total cost of ownership not just that cheapest system you can buy. This includes support, cost of downtime, software, the time to spec and build/install a machine.

I am not saying that a mac will be better or a pc is worse, but simply that people need to be fully aware of what their choices are and that its not simple to say this is better because its less money NOW.

And once again, I don't claim to be an objective guide. I am just laying down my analysis, experience and opinion. It is completely subjective. You have to decide for yourself.

 

[Tom.Wong]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...4 600048485 600048526&IsNodeId=1&name=Nehalem

you can look at the pricing there yourself, and any "pre made" computer company will always overcharge for certian components. I always get stock ram, and hard drive, and upgrade that separately. Whether you agree or disagree that i7 vs nehalem xeon are really any different, the price is still there. The components you are paying for a stock mac pro are marginally different (marginal in tha tyour spending thousands of dollars already, a few hundred give or take is relative depending on who's buying) but that's where the pricing is. Do they over charge for ram and hard drives? Yes, so do a lot of other PC companies that build computers for you.

But are you completely getting ripped off? If you look at the individual components, and break it down, the price difference isn't that huge.

i work on both systems and always need to bounce back and forth for different needs. But there is no magic secret to macs or pc's, they share the same parts, at close to the same price if you put them 1:1 parts with one another. The difference is your work flow, what operating system you need, that's pretty much it. I honestly really want to start seeing some benchmarks now.

 

[Craig Schober]

REDCINE - The first REDCINE came out on Windows, then Mac.

i believe you but do not remember it that way at all. i still consistently see redusers complain about windows releases lagging behind mac more than any other software complaint here.

SCRATCH - We were the first and only high-end application to natively support R3D for about a year. We run Windows exclusively.

that's fine but i'm not talking about fcp, cs5, vagas, scratch or any other software for sale. i'm talking about red released, red developed "free" stuff.

And when that comes out, I'm sure many people will use it. Until then, several thousand camera owners have work to do.

everyone has to work but not everyone has to work in realtime and even then not everyone needs more than a redrocket for that.

Because they are completely different code-bases, have different code teams, and are essentially separate products stuck together by marketing and a patchwork of "Send to..." glue.

so are you saying that fcp would be more likely to support 4k natively if it wasn't packaged in fcps with color? i guess you're making a technical case and i'm thinking more about apple marketing.

Rocket Fuel, which ASSIMILATE has offered (and sold a ton of) for almost a year - is US$10,999. A complete turnkey system can be purchased from Keycode Media in Los Angeles for under US$15K. Many of our other resellers - B&H in NYC, Systems4U in Holland, Seika in Tokyo, etc, etc. - offer similar packages.

Get your facts straight, please.

actually i was referring to red hardware as in the camera body and basic accessories. sorry to put you on the defense. i should've been more clear.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Talking about a home built PCs, look at all the big time DITs who refuse to use a hackintosh, because they don't trust a home built system. They want to know the manufacture supports the system 100%. Hackintosh is a home built PC running OSX instead of Windows.

In a professional environment, it might save a little money, but it adds a ton of liability to you.

Just something to think about.


Dusty
Local 600 DIT

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Talking about a home built PCs, look at all the big time DITs who refuse to use a hackintosh, because they don't trust a home built system. They want to know the manufacture supports the system 100%. Hackintosh is a home built PC running OSX instead of Windows.

In a professional environment, it might save a little money, but it adds a ton of liability to you.

Just something to think about.

Dusty
Local 600 DIT

Absolutely. You can't really use Hackintosh everywhere. Many clients would demand a 100% Apple approved system and that is very much understandable.

 

[PatrickW]

First of all, a 2.66 GHz Nehalem Xeon can cost $284, not necessarily $1000. This one: http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=39718. Now, there's a Gainestown version that costs more. Later, the Lynnfield Xeon released, costing even lesser, but this is clearly not in the Mac Pro. The 3.33 GHz six-core in the competing $3000 build, however, is clearly $1000.

I did make a mistake with the $500. But I am sure you noticed that I overpriced the rest of the components. Fine, let's give $750 or $1000 for the misc stuff. It is still a better deal.

That price is for when you buy 1000 processors in one order for the Xeon.

Is it still a better deal when you pay for OS software? Is the full suite of apps required on PC cheaper than FCS? How much do you value your 10 hours to build the machine and provide tech support to get it up and running if it ever fails?

When I make a purchase decision for a production machine, I don't make a subjective choice. I evaluate the decision objectively look at the total cost of ownership and pick the best choice.

On a small budget for someone who is technically competent to configure and build their own box, it may be the best choice, but for a professional looking to have a reliable machine to make a living with, it tends to be a better option to pick someone that may be slower than a DIY choice, but is more reliable, because you can always add more render nodes for saving time!

 

[Peter Chang]

ADOBE: 3D Stereoscopic Editing with Premiere Pro CS5
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/davtechtable/3d-stereoscopic-editing-with-premierepro-cs5-winosx/

See how simple and straightforward the S3D workflow is on a PC?

To edit and proof 3D on a PC, CS5 aside, all you need is a 3D monitor + NVIDIA 3D Vision + NVIDIA Geforce graphics card + Cineform NeoHD = $1500.

Monitor-wise, all you need is the Alienware AW2310 or this: http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/19/asus-23-inch-vg236h-3d-monitor-gets-reviewed-pricey-but-a-rea/

NVIDIA has no plans to provide MAC support in the future.

If you want to shoot and edit 3D right now, it does not get cheaper or easier than the Adobe CS5 workflow on a PC.

 

[Jay Gannon]

NVIDIA has no plans to provide MAC support in the future.

I know for a fact thats not true.

 

[Peter Chang]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...4 600048485 600048526&IsNodeId=1&name=NehalemI honestly really want to start seeing some benchmarks now.

A $700 core i5 PC beats a $3300 2009 Nehalem Mac Pro 2x 2.26Ghz. The Mac lags by 20%. These are Anandtech benchmarks done with an Intel X25-M SSD.

For comparison, here's the same test with the i7 980X at stock speed:

The 980X is an easy overclock to 4Ghz which would yield another ~20% boost in speed.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Your obviously putting a very low price on having enterprise grade hardware, comparing gaming/consumer rigs that are not built for 24/7 heavy use to enterprise grade server hardware is highly misleading.

Also the convenience of working on the same platform as your post facility when it comes to asset management and data cataloging tools is not to be underestimated.

A PC is of no use to you if your post house is going to be working with FCP and you need to be able to go between there and your system fast and easy.

The price argument is minor when comparing like for like, Mac Pro vs HP Z800 vs Dell T series workstations, proper enterprise grade hardware. The Mac Pro badly needs a refresh I agree but that does not rule it out as a fantastic workhorse that will do everything you need.

I don't know what you meant by

To edit and proof 3D on a PC, CS5 aside, all you need is a 3D monitor + NVIDIA 3D Vision + NVIDIA Geforce graphics card + Cineform NeoHD = $1500.

Cineform has NEO3d for Mac coming within weeks and when that happens the workflow is entirely the same. Or there are many current Mac workflows for 3d already out there.

Personally my stance on it is if its for clients don't cheap out on consumer hardware buy a workstation and write it off with depreciation against tax. Running a business comes with costs people need to stop skimping on them and devaluing the work of the professions overall.

If its for personal work use whatever you can afford. Thats an entirely different situation.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Oh and just so people don't get the wrong impression I have 6 Macs and 7 PC's so I'm giving a relatively unbiased opinion.

 

[Ian Laurie]

Oh and just so people don't get the wrong impression I have 6 Macs and 7 PC's so I'm giving a relatively unbiased opinion.

Boy I sure hope you have air conditioning.

 

[Tom Lowe]

It is frustrating that Macs don't support all the great hardware out there, but they are so much more stable than Windows that I gladly give up that hardware.

I have never had a crash on my Windows 7 machine. Ever. I've never had a virus, either. Where is this coming from?

I believe that the tide has turned, and more and more often you will see people here moving toward PC/ADOBE/NIVIDA. I could be wrong, but this is the clear trend I see.

This actually benefits Red. Having inexpensive PCs that can run CS5 with Mercury, to allow real-time editing of native R3D files is HUGE for spreading the format.

I only hope that the Red team will fully embrace and support PC users.

The collaboration of Red and Adobe so far has paid off in huge ways.

 

[Peter Chang]

I don't know what you meant by

To edit and proof 3D on a PC, CS5 aside, all you need is a 3D monitor + NVIDIA 3D Vision + NVIDIA Geforce graphics card + Cineform NeoHD = $1500.

Cineform has NEO3d for Mac coming within weeks and when that happens the workflow is entirely the same. Or there are many current Mac workflows for 3d already out there.

No Mac support with NVIDIA's 3D Vision, so you would need something like the AJA Kona 3 ($3000) for stereo output. Currently there are no Fermi NVIDIA cards available for Mac. Even if there were, a Mac Pro's power supply and cooling wouldn't be able to cope. However, I have a GTX285 + GTX480 running very smoothly in my i7 980X powered Hackintosh box in Snow Leopard OC'd to 4.3 Ghz.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Tom,

How long has Windows 7 been around?

I have a masters in CS and almost 20 years professional experience with computers, everything from desktops to supercomputers and OSX is vastly more stable than Windows in my professional experience. Granted, I have never worked with Windows 7.

Red needs to support both Mac and Windows though.


Dusty

 

[Peter Chang]

I have never had a crash on my Windows 7 machine. Ever. I've never had a virus, either. Where is this coming from?

I believe that the tide has turned, and more and more often you will see people here moving toward PC/ADOBE/NIVIDA. I could be wrong, but this is the clear trend I see.

This actually benefits Red. Having inexpensive PCs that can run CS5 with Mercury, to allow real-time editing of native R3D files is HUGE for spreading the format.

I only hope that the Red team will fully embrace and support PC users.

The collaboration of Red and Adobe so far has paid off in huge ways.

Glad to hear you haven't had any crashes or viruses, Tom. :thumbsup:

I've experienced a few crashes on my 2010 Macbook Pro. Snow Leopard = Apple's Vista

Just about every RED shooter that I know personally uses PC/ADOBE/Nvidia.

With CS5 and Nvidia 3D, OSX won't be seeing much action around here. I haven't opened FCP in months.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I have never experienced a crash in Windows 7 or Snow Leopard. Granted, I use Windows 7 on a daily basis and Snow Leopard only occasionally. I don't think it is fair to assess Windows 7's stability on your experience with Windows Me or XP. Or performance vs. Windows Vista. I love the interface of Snow Leopard. It just seems a tad more user-friendly than Windows. The lack of support for many of my preferred applications is a big blow. The GPU side is very underdeveloped, and ATI and Nvidia don't seem to help either. This is a big concern as we move more into GPU features like Compute, 3D, Eyefinity/Vision etc.

Just about every RED shooter that I know personally uses PC/ADOBE/Nvidia.

I am very surprised. Everyone seems to use FCP/Apple around me! Unless of course, you know only 2-3 of them. :smile:

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Your obviously putting a very low price on having enterprise grade hardware, comparing gaming/consumer rigs that are not built for 24/7 heavy use to enterprise grade server hardware is highly misleading.

Also the convenience of working on the same platform as your post facility when it comes to asset management and data cataloging tools is not to be underestimated.

A PC is of no use to you if your post house is going to be working with FCP and you need to be able to go between there and your system fast and easy.

The price argument is minor when comparing like for like, Mac Pro vs HP Z800 vs Dell T series workstations, proper enterprise grade hardware. The Mac Pro badly needs a refresh I agree but that does not rule it out as a fantastic workhorse that will do everything you need.

I don't know what you meant by

To edit and proof 3D on a PC, CS5 aside, all you need is a 3D monitor + NVIDIA 3D Vision + NVIDIA Geforce graphics card + Cineform NeoHD = $1500.

Cineform has NEO3d for Mac coming within weeks and when that happens the workflow is entirely the same. Or there are many current Mac workflows for 3d already out there.

Personally my stance on it is if its for clients don't cheap out on consumer hardware buy a workstation and write it off with depreciation against tax. Running a business comes with costs people need to stop skimping on them and devaluing the work of the professions overall.

If its for personal work use whatever you can afford. Thats an entirely different situation.

Good post, Jay.

Actually CineForm3D does already work very well on the Mac.

------

We use both, PC and Macs. The PC is the more expensive machine because it's build for grading (HP Z800, Nvidia 5800 SDI). In the hopefully not too likely case the HP Z800 dies I have a 24h service that will instantly repair the box. You don't have that with custom made machines, you don't have that with Apple.

Windows 7 turned out to be very stable, before that we were running XP64 which was very reliable but in certain areas (QT) pretty limited. Apple OSX is in the same realm. No differences here when we talk about reliability.

Mac Pros are enterprise machines, so are PC boxes like the HP Z800. Neither is cheaper or better, the hardware is more or less the same, it's just the OS and the drivers which are different.

For me as a filmmaker who is running a small post facility for the own jobs convenience and reliability are key. I don't care much about the sheer performance, nor do I care too much about the price tag of the box. Down times, crashes and software issues are much more costly, especially if expensive staff is trouble shooting instead of working on the project.

Hacintoshs, over clocked PCs and the likes may work for the IT-expert but surely not for the average user. I've never been to a post facility that used DIY boxes.

-----

Regarding Red and workflows I think that the Mac route has more advantages when budget / reliability / ease of use are vital aspects. You can run FCP, MC and CS5 on a Mac. Red's own tools seem still to run better on a Mac, you have direct R3Ds access through QT reference clips and finally a MacPro is not more expensive than any other enterprise grade PC.

I would start with a Mac and when I need advanced graphic cards such as Nvidia SDI I would invest into a PC and software that takes advantage of such technology like SpeedGrade or Scratch. BTW, if you want to invest into advanced finishing software Autodesk Smoke on Mac is a great software that can bring you almost anywhere.



Hans

 

[Dustin Cross]

Great post Hans!


Dusty