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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What is the recommended editing system for doing 4K on the red one?

Back focus test.

Back focus test.

One of the great things about 2/3 inch HD shooting was the simplicity/sure fire way of setting back focus. HD lenses video lenses for 3 CCD's have a back focus adjustment. What about doing a test with a good HD zoom attached to the B4 adapter at 4K. Capturing 4K with this 2K lens set up so it will be all black around the sides, top and bottom with the image showing as a circle in the center. At one stop intervals from 1.6 to say f8, the question will be, with properly set back focus and with the issue of the extra softness coming from the B4 adapter, will it appear soft, as soft as what Mike described from shooting with great glass and still appearing soft. It would be an interesting experiment. Perhaps it can be done at LART. Test the B4 with good back focus adjustment and record 4K. If it appears sharper than the cine lenses we would have a good argument about back focus.
 
If you want to show your 4k to the world, it means you have enough money to go in a 4k finishing suite for as long as it takes, that simple really…, so relax.

Emmanuel
 
visionmind said:
What I find interesting is that I, for theoretical reasons, have wondered the exact same thing. The funny thing is that every time someone asks, instead getting answers they get judged.
I'm pretty sure we are all aware of the small odds of getting a movie printed out for theatrical distribution (since we're frequently being reminded).
Not only that, I'm sure it would be easier to play it conservative, and edit at lower resolutions.
visionmind
Click to expand...

This statement assumes that the format you edit in is the same as the delivery format.

It's not necessary to edit in 4k because it has relatively little to do with delivering 4k data to a filmout or digital distribution.

There are many steps involved in finishing your work AFTER the edit is done, and that's where the 4k tools come into play.

You can edit your redcode originals in ANY resolution today, and in a very short time conform to 4k either via proxy swap or using a tool like Scratch, or take your edl to a 4k capable facility for finishing by pros with the experience to do this extremely non-trivial work.

4k is possible. 4k is here now. But nobody said 4k was easy or cheap, and there is very little call for 4k finished material right now. As small as the odds are of getting a film distributed, it's microscopic to get one distributed with 4k projection. Chances are much larger, for the time being, that you'll be delivering 2k for a filmout or digital projection.

jt
 
Hi, I thought that the softness of the Red images was due to the slow shutter speed used compared to still photography.

thanks,
 
luis bustamante said:
Hi, I thought that the softness of the Red images was due to the slow shutter speed used compared to still photography.

thanks,
Click to expand...

If things are in motion (camera/actors) then there will be some blur due to the slow shutter. Especially on longer focal lengths. Many things can contribute to softness. You pretty much have to get them all right if you want the sharpest shot possible.
 
Darwin said:
Mike,
Did you forget your Ritalin?
Click to expand...

Never take it, and that is perhaps why my answers run so long.

: )

But "editing in 4K" is ludicrous - nobody has any valid reason to do so AT THIS TIME with the current state of available technology.

DEFINITELY worth revisiting as Red gets closer (or publishes any further details) on the 4K displays and projectors they announced at NAB 2007.

But was a sore spot, as I've seen this line of logic before.

Even FINISHING at 4K is only a viable option for a very small number of projects, and EDITING actually at full 4K res is not an option, period, for anybody right now.

Not meaning to jump down the original poster's throat, just that I felt it was time to say it all again.

-mike
 
One last bit - for those interested in editing at 4K...how/where would you monitor it? There's Quad HD res monitors out there for high end industrial applications, but those are all about resolution, NOT color reproduction - which is at LEAST half the battle.

Sony makes the only shipping 4K projector AFAIK, and the interface is a crapload (I think 8?) of HD-SDI cables - 4 quadrants of 2048x1080, each fed by dual link HD-SDI. Those 8 HD-SDIs are a special setup - no EDITING (color grading different category) setup in the world has that interface. Not AJA, not Avid, etc. So...you CAN'T do creative editorial at 4K right now anyway.
 
We have cut 4k on our Smoke 2K system...it wont play in realtime, but you can actually edit...obviously not very practical but doable. The question though is what are you going to do with it short of sending for a film out?

We exported 4K DPX log files from Red Alert and brought those into Smoke, color corrected and output 1080p masters
 
So one of the better solutions may be, correct me if I'm wrong:

Shoot 4K or 2K (higher frame rates)
Downrez to 1080P in Redcine
Edit in 1080P or 1K
Output a 2K DI or 1080P for HD viewing

In the professional opinion of some of the redusers here, would a 2.4 Ghz Macbook Pro be sufficient enough for this workflow, or would it be necessary to move up to a Mac Pro with at least a quad or octo core?
 
Good Thread.

Regarding Mike Curtis' post #9 ...

Well said and much appreciated, thank you Mike!
This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for - simple, yet answering many, many question both complex and mundane.

However, I do have to say that much of the "geeking out" exibited in this tread and in the general case of the 4K question is DIRECTLY resulting from the level of forthcoming and disclosure displayed on RED's very own workflow page:

* Shoot 4K REDCODE RAW @27MB/sec.
* Load footage into REDCINE Do 1st light correction.
* Export to any number of output options.
* REDCINE is supported on Intel Mac and Windows XP only.

SO ... now it is perfectly clear that 4k is not quite as easy as RED makes it sound. Good to know. (LOL:bleh:)
 
"In the professional opinion of some of the redusers here, would a 2.4 Ghz Macbook Pro be sufficient enough for this workflow, or would it be necessary to move up to a Mac Pro with at least a quad or octo core?"

This is my question too...I am pondering the purchase of a new laptop. I'd like to know that I can load my RED footage on to it and do a "first light" correction. Also be able to view some clips in real time.

I am not expecting to be able to edit 4k.

What are people using in the field right now?

Is anyone using a 2.6Ghz Intel? Is it burning a hole in your lap?

Dylan Macleod, CSC
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com
 
4k isn´t typical in editing, but the same was said for 4k cameras not to long ago.

However editing and finishing at 4k (or above) is much more usual than many people think, especially outside of the cinema industry for special venues and installations.

our largest edit this year was at 5760*1080, a triple hd-width 22 minute dance performance for sasha waltz. recording was done with 3 hdcams, cinerama style, editing was done in premiere scaled to 4k. Worked fine, however not many edits, maybe ~150.
http://www.sashawaltz.com/

the largest edit we did in 2003 was a 8192*4096 for a mercedes benz special venue. editing was terrible back then. REALLY terrible and involved several discreet products.

for realtime 4k editing and finishing, the most powerful system in use i am aware of is the dvs clipster (~60.000).
http://dvs.de
Its multistream uncompressed 4k with realtime FX. It can also do 4K at 60p. Monitoring and i/o is 8 * HD-SDI or HD quad-monitors.

But for editing longform it requires LOTS of storage and the editing interface is not extremly powerful, rather a finshing than an editing system.
For shortforms you can edit fine on clipster, for longform i would recommend to go with a offline.

However it is extremly impressive to see that amount of power at work, imagine several speedgrades, lustre, scratches and filmmasters together.

its interface however *cough* is obviously designed from geman engineers for german engineers :)

I want to underline a point, speaking out of bad experience.
Never, never DI your 4k at 2K resolution. We were up for a surprise this april when we projected a movie of ours in 4K with a sony srx, which we only monitored in 2K. All the carefully removed / reduced noise/grain was too visible, it wasn´t in 2K and not in the 35mm film out copy.

For lower budgets: With the cineform product, editing 4K in Premiere pro seems pretty feasible. We didn´t find the time to give it a detailed testride yet, but will do so soon.
 
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