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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What is the recommended editing system for doing 4K on the red one?

J

James Whitmoore

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What is the recommended mac based editing system for doing 4K on the red one? What are the specs? Does it have to be intel? What about a 2004 G5 power mac two gigahertz 4 gigs of ram 256 mb vram etc... will that work?
 
In the off chance that this isn't a troll, I'll point out that if you took the the most pimped out octo Mac you could buy from Apple today, overclocked it and water cooled the hell out of it... it would still breath hard working with 4K material.
 
is this true

you wont be able to edit 4k on a super mac tower with the newest final cut

then on what?

and what software?

where are all the pro answers when you need them?

this is a scarey halloween for me

i figured red was working with apple and fcp on a solution

jim? jarred? graeme? gibby? jay? evan? brook?

ahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

happy halloween

but seriously any answers.
 
I said that the latest and greatest would be working hard, not that it wouldn't be working. It is just that 4k material means pushing a hell of a lot of bits around and it will be a while before the hardware does it with ease. Remember it wasn't that long ago hardware was struggling to real time DV footage with something like 1/30th the demands of 4k. Even now it is still huffing and puffing with HD material at less than a quarter the demands of 4K.
 
James Whitmoore said:
What is the recommended mac based editing system for doing 4K on the red one? What are the specs? Does it have to be intel? What about a 2004 G5 power mac two gigahertz 4 gigs of ram 256 mb vram etc... will that work?
Click to expand...

-Unfortunately a G5 cannot be used to cut Redcode because the Redcode Quicktime component is only compiled for Intel processors. (Presumably it contains some core inner loop that is written specifically for Intel chips)

-It's possible that when Final Cut Pro fully supports redcode, it may run on a G5... Doubtful.

-A 512x256 pixel proxy of a 4096x2048 .R3D file can run in realtime on Quicktime player at 24fps on my Macbook pro from the internal drive. The 1024x512 version plays at 12 fps (this is skipping frames, so I think it's syncable). 2048x1024 at 4 fps.

-Batch downconversion to ProRes can be done today with Compressor (though their are some quality issues).

Cutting in realtime while watching an actual 4K image is a ways off but in my book 4K proxy realtime cutting is literally already a reality on a laptop now. But I think you need the intel chip.

IBloom
 
EDIT - Yeargh, I was tired and cranky when I wrote this, I've gone back and edited a bit:

PEOPLE.....4K (EDIT - 4K FINISHING, I'm all for 4K acquisition) is, at present, the very, very, very highest end of the bestest of the bestest professional, Hollywood work.

You're thinking way, way way too hard about this.

Based on my own experiences working with the Red One cameras so far, and from knowing what the likely scenarios are for distribution....CHILL OUT about posting at 4K.

The ONE AND ONLY time you'll NEED to post at 4K is IF you get theatrical distribution for your project and WANT, NEED, AND CAN AFFORD the best possible filmout.

For most stuff, an 1080p (or 2K) finish will be sufficient if not overkill.

Cross that with the fact that getting optimal focus, even with lenses like Cooke S4, Ultra Primes or Super Speeds, is HARD. (Factor in the early Red built PL mount issues, which I have faith will be addressed correctly, and it is even harder).

So if you didn't have a very still subject, AND a total badass pulling focus for you....even if you shot 4K, you still wouldn't have 4K worth of image in there. A LOT of the footage posted to date has 1 to 1.5K to MAYBE 2K worth of detail in the images....some of that is inferior glass, a LOT of that is imperfect focus pulling...and some of that has been PL mount issues that are TEMPORARY. I trust Jim when he says the new PL will be a "religious experience." I know how much this stuff matters to him, he'll get it right.

SO....if you aren't Soderbergh or somesuch, 4K is something you probably couldn't afford anyway.

NOT TO SAY that you shouldn't shoot 4K, I DEFINITELY advocate that. I can see the difference between 2K and 4K, it IS worth having.

But SHOOT 4K, then FINISH at 2K or HD (and 1920x1080 is awfully convenient and affordable for most of us out there) and you'll still get outstanding results, moreso for the money.

EDIT - having 4K to work with for certain shots that you want to reframe (in Redcine) or pull keys from (in any decent compositing app), and then rendering out to 2K/HD is a great option as well. If I had to roto, key, repo, stabilize, etc., I'd want to work from 4K and deliver as 1080p or 2K.

FYI, I've posted some footage from our first night's shoot in Spain on hdforindies.com at

http://www.hdforindies.com/2007/10/my-spain-red-shoot-first-nights-shoot.html

...and, much as I wish it weren't so, it is soft. Even with Zeiss Super Speeds, it isn't as sharp as I'd like to be, not by a long shot. BUT...the shots do still show off the low light performance admirably in VERY challenging shooting environments. EDIT - and they are soft likely because of the known backfocus issue - not a permanent problem with the camera or its imaging ability.

We have some sharper stuff coming up as soon as I can get it all organized and tweaked to my satisfaction, so check in next day or so.

So anyway, quit geeking out about 4K finishing - 99% of us can't afford to finish at 4K for most of our projects, and I'd say 60-80% of footage posted to date wouldn't be discernable between 2K and 4K once filmed out at this stage...not to say that'll be the case long term, but it is for a lot of what is out there right now (and I'm including the footage I've posted as well, I'm not saying I'm anything special).

The Red One is an outstanding piece of gear IN DEVELOPMENT, that isn't quite done yet, as Red is forthcoming about. WHEN (not IF) it gets all the I's dotted and T's crossed, it'll be an outstanding implement...that requires a skilled operator to get the maximum results out of. Think of a fine Porsche. Anybody can mash the accelerator and wring the wheel, but who knows how to deftly heel/toe and lift throttle oversteer just so through that tricky off camber corner?

Precision tool for precise results. If you drive it like a Camry, you'll still get functional results...just not as good.

As for 4K post....biggest baddest Mac processor setup that is available when you buy (and don't buy till your camera is about to land), generous but not ridiculous RAM, whatever graphics card Graeme recommends (and the super high end current one is actually SLOWER for our purposes), and lots of high speed storage if you want to do DPX stuff for best results in Color or the like.

EDIT - the folks it'll make sense to do 4K post all the way through will the ones who:
a.) had a True Professional pulling focus for them - you can shoot all the 4K you want, but if out of focus, you don't have 4K WORTH of picture
b.) nice glass. REALLY nice glass. More soon on that topic.
c.) a LIKELY filmout, and a nice one at that. Price of 4K post will change over time, but for now, still pricey (unless working with Scratch, and see note below)
d.) BUDGET for 4K post
e.) NEED for that filmout - again, if you aren't going theatrical, you DO NOT NEED a 4K master AT THIS TIME. The cost of having that 4K master is significant in terms of insurance. Having a process that will let you go back and re-render to 4K with minimal fuss? SERIOUSLY worth considering (another nod to Scratch)

Aside - somebody told me they were doing a 4K finish on HDV shot material. Seemed like a total waste of time to me - there isn't 4K worth of info in there, there's no benefit I'm aware of to doing so. I said why bother, he said what if he could get a 4K finish for same price as HD, I could tell he was so in love with the idea I didn't want to say to him that there would be no discernable difference between that and a good uncompressed HD finish with good chroma artifact reduction....which his 4K finish may or may not have.

OK. End of rant, time to read The Book to The Girl....

-mike, Red realist
 
Seriously with the amount you're going to spend for a properly outfitted camera, the cost of a tricked out Octomac is nothing....


Noah
 
MikeCurtis said:
PEOPLE.....4K is, at present, the very, very, very highest end of the bestest of the bestest professional, Hollywood work.

You're thinking way, way way too hard about this.

Based on my own experiences working with the Red One cameras so far, and from knowing what the likely scenarios are for distribution....CHILL OUT about posting at 4K.

The ONE AND ONLY time you'll NEED to post at 4K is IF you get theatrical distribution for your project and WANT, NEED, AND CAN AFFORD the best possible filmout.

For most stuff, an 1080p finish will be sufficient if not overkill.

Cross that with the fact that getting optimal focus, even with lenses like Cooke S4, Ultra Primes or Super Speeds, is HARD. (Factor in the early Red built PL mount issues, which I have faith will be addressed correctly, and it is even harder).

So if you didn't have a very still subject, AND a total badass pulling focus for you....even if you shot 4K, you still wouldn't have 4K worth of image in there. A LOT of the footage posted to date has 1 to 1.5K to MAYBE 2K worth of detail in the images....some of that is inferior glass, a LOT of that is imperfect focus pulling...and some of that has been PL mount issues that are TEMPORARY. I trust Jim when he says the new PL will be a "religious experience." I know how much this stuff matters to him, he'll get it right.

SO....if you aren't Soderbergh or somesuch, 4K is something you probably couldn't afford anyway.

NOT TO SAY that you shouldn't shoot 4K, I DEFINITELY advocate that. I can see the difference between 2K and 4K, it IS worth having.

But SHOOT 4K, then FINISH at 2K or HD (and 1920x1080 is awfully convenient and affordable for most of us out there) and you'll still get outstanding results, moreso for the money.

FYI, I've posted some footage from our first night's shoot in Spain on hdforindies.com at

http://www.hdforindies.com/2007/10/my-spain-red-shoot-first-nights-shoot.html

...and, much as I wish it weren't so, it is soft. Even with Zeiss Super Speeds, it isn't as sharp as I'd like to be, not by a long shot. BUT...the shots do still show off the low light performance admirably in VERY challenging shooting environments.

We have some sharper stuff coming up as soon as I can get it all organized and tweaked to my satisfaction, so check in next day or so.

So anyway, quit geeking out about 4K finishing - 99% of us can't afford to finish at 4K for most of our projects, and I'd say 60-80% of footage posted to date wouldn't be discernable between 2K and 4K once filmed out at this stage...not to say that'll be the case long term, but it is for a lot of what is out there right now (and I'm including the footage I've posted as well, I'm not saying I'm anything special).

The Red One is an outstanding piece of gear IN DEVELOPMENT, that isn't quite done yet, as Red is forthcoming about. WHEN (not IF) it gets all the I's dotted and T's crossed, it'll be an outstanding implement...that requires a skilled operator to get the maximum out of. Think of a fine Porsche. Anybody can mash the accelerator and wring the wheel, but who knows how to deftly heel/toe and lift throttle oversteer just so through that tricky off camber corner?

Precision tool for precise results. If you drive it like a Camry, you'll still get functional results...just not as good.

As for 4K post....biggest baddest Mac processor setup that is available when you buy (and don't buy till your camera is about to land), generous but not ridiculous RAM, whatever graphics card Graeme recommends (and the super high end current one is actually SLOWER for our purposes), and lots of high speed storage if you want to do DPX stuff for best results in Color or the like.

OK. End of rant, time to read The Book to The Girl....

-mike, Red realist
Click to expand...
Mike, he didn't say anything about finishing. He was talking about editing.
 
As far as finishing / online edit is concerned, Mike hit the nail on the head.

For creative editing, you could use a frikkin' ancient iMac DV as long as you had someone with an Intel Mac transcode the footage for you...

I've worked on stuff which has finished in 4K but was edited at SD res on a G4 with OS9 running Media Composer.

Don't worry about specs. Talk to someone like Mike, get him to figure out a workflow to suit your project, then worry about doing a good edit.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
markp said:
Mike, he didn't say anything about finishing. He was talking about editing.
Click to expand...


Yes he did. You have to understand the 'meta-mesage' here...

1. Capture at best posible format (4k) (and watch out for focus issues).

2. Edit in easy 1080P.

3. Deliver in 'easy 1080P' or, if you get lucky and someone wants actual film prints, in 'almost easy 2k'.

4. Save original 4k files for the future 're-release' version or 'completely remastered anniversary edition' .... possible in a near future when even iPods will be able to handle 4k.
 
I agree with Mike completely and will in all likelihood be shooting in 4k and editing and finishing in 2k with Adobe/CineForm for my own work. It's just that James sounded like he was wanting to edit in 4k and I figured I'd point out that might not be so good an idea with a G5... or even the latest OctoMac.

If he wanted to use the hardware he has, someone with a RedCine compatible platform would be able to output standard definition footage that his system can handle and he could then use the edit list to get the resulting cuts out of RedCine at anything up to the original 4k.

Not saying that I can see a reason for him to do this... just that he should be able to shortly.
 
who knows how to deftly heel/toe and lift throttle oversteer just so through that tricky off camber corner?

-mike, Red realist
Click to expand...

Dead on perspective, Mike. I don't know many who can lift-throttle oversteer a Porsche in an off-camber corner without flying off the track - but the analogy is a good one...and luckily if you really screw up with a Red at most you only trash your career :)
 
Great post Mike.

Curious about your critical focus experience... Have you compared the Red glass to Cookes and Ultraprimes? Do they hold up?

Or are you simply experiencing more critical focus pulling due to the resolution difference between 4K and HD?
 
Mark Pedersen said:
Great post Mike.

Curious about your critical focus experience... Have you compared the Red glass to Cookes and Ultraprimes? Do they hold up?

Or are you simply experiencing more critical focus pulling due to the resolution difference between 4K and HD?
Click to expand...

I had a similar experience. Even my sharp stuff is a little soft at 4K. I think we are pushing the limits of our lenses optically. Lense aberations on the open side (F 1.3) diffraction on the tight side (F11 or higher). It may be that the reality of 4K is it needs to be shot at around 4/5.6 to get it ultra sharp. Nothing to do with RED, everything to do with physics and glass.

IBloom
 
ibloom said:
I had a similar experience. Even my sharp stuff is a little soft at 4K. I think we are pushing the limits of our lenses optically. Lense aberations on the open side (F 1.3) diffraction on the tight side (F11 or higher). It may be that the reality of 4K is it needs to be shot at around 4/5.6 to get it ultra sharp. Nothing to do with RED, everything to do with physics and glass.

IBloom
Click to expand...

Maybe! Although a good Canon or Nikon DSLR shot seems to be more detailed at the moment? So it can't be just a lens issue. Maybe DSLRs can get away with a less-strong optical low pass filter than the Red because they are for stills? Certainly when rendering 3D animation that's the case - something that looks great as a still might have moire / chatter issues in motion, so you often use different (and softer-looking) anti-aliasing schemes for motion. Also, maybe you can't use the same color moire-removing schemes that you do for still camera shots because the moire-removal needs to be consistent from one frame to the other? So again, your OLPF needs to be stronger than the average still camera's? Also, I'd imagine with the Red One, they would err on the side of caution.

In either event I was disappointed by the pixel-per-pixel "softness" of the first digital still camera shots I took, when compared to scanned film... I think it's the combination of OLPF, Bayer sensor, etc. Also many early Red users don't seem to have their PL mounts properly shimmed / collimated / whatever? Hence the nice mount upgrade Red is talking about to make that whole process smoother?

Agreed that the Red is producing super stunning stuff when downsampled to 2K / HD though!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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